Where does James Harden rate All Time in shooting guards ?

What was all this about anyways?

Oh yes, Harden is petty good.

But he needs at least a couple of Champships or he will be the best ever REGULAR season SP to play the game.

HOF? He already got punch ticket

But this may be the season

Those cheaters by the bay with the superteam...

 

Wasn't comparing Lonzo Ball to Kobe. Was pointing out that Lonzo, in any other market except LA or NY, wouldn't be a story AT ALL. But he's front page news every single day on ESPN and he's followed by every sports media outlet - not because he's great (he isn't) or he's leading a winning team (he's not) or he's the top rookie (he's not even top 10) or he's an all-star, but simply because he's in LA.

My point is, Kobe is disproportionately valued because of his market while Harden is penalized because of his.

As for the volume versus quality argument, I'm a big fan of PER - here are the top 10 all time PER seasons:

Rank Player PER Season
1. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.82 1962-63
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.74 1961-62
3. Michael Jordan* 31.71 1987-88
4. LeBron James 31.67 2008-09
5. Michael Jordan* 31.63 1990-91
6. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.63 1963-64
7. LeBron James 31.59 2012-13
8. Stephen Curry 31.46 2015-16
9. Michael Jordan* 31.18 1989-90
10. Michael Jordan* 31.14 1988-89

Hard to argue with that list.

Harden's current 31.32 would put him 9th on that list (10th if Lebron stays on his current pace of 31.38).

Kobe's best season was 2005 - 2006 where he checks in at 60th all-time, in his 10th season. Harden looks like he'll post a top 10 - 15 PER season all time in his 9th season.

If you want to take volume over quality, we'll have to wait another 10 years to sort this out until Harden's career is over. But if I were drafting rookie Kobe or rookie Harden today, I'd take Harden in a heartbeat because the other names on that top 10 list are Chamberlain, Jordan, James and Curry. Kobe isn't even in the quality / efficiency GOAT conversation.

 

Lot's of revisionist history going on here. We DID see Kobe put up horrible performances and choke games. Want proof? How about 3 straight losses to Detroit in the 2004 finals where Kobe put up these "clutch" numbers:

2004 Finals vs Detroit Pistons

The Lakers were tied 1-1 with the Pistons in the 2004 NBA Finals going into game three. Kobe had three-straight poor performances and the Lakers lost all three games along with the NBA title.


Game 3: Kobe goes 4 for 13 with 11 points, 3 rebounds, 5 assists, and 4 turnovers.

Game 4: Kobe goes 8 for 25 with 20 points, 0 rebounds, 2 assists, and 3 turnovers.

Game 5: Kobe goes 7 for 21 with 24 points, 3 rebounds, 4 assists, and 3 turnovers.

He shot 24 of 97 from 3pt range during the 2004 playoffs for a whopping .247 shooting percentage from three.

Kobe started his career as the #2 guy behind Shaq and won his first three rings benefiting from playing 2nd fiddle behind Shaq. Let's see how Harden performs in the playoffs with CP3 and when he's not the only option carrying the team and then we'll make compairsons.

 

yeah he needs to play with the likes of prime shaq and prime gasol & odom first

 

Not really sure where to begin with this...

1. Effort is key...all shooters go through slumps and Kobe has never been confused as being an efficient scorer...Harden has bad shooting games too, but I have never criticized him for missing. I care about trying. In the 3 games you listed, Kobe averaged 20 shots per game and scored over 18 ppg. Sure, not good. Shaq also had a couple "weak" games by his standards...which brings me to my next point...

2. The Pistons defense was arguably the best defense in the league that season. Kobe would not only be guarded by great wing defenders, but he'd penetrate and be met by Ben Wallace or Rasheed. Kobe has never been known for efficient scoring to begin with, so not sure how he's getting penalized here for only averaging 18+ ppg over those 3 games, even though he's facing the best defense possible.

3. Did you say this was the NBA Finals? Hmm...that's nice. Maybe Harden can get there first, before we anoint him the position right behind MJ?

Speaking of effort, which is what I care about...Harden did not attempt one shot until midway through the 2nd quarter in an elimination game against a team missing it's best players. From the tip until the end, he didnt try and had zero focus or will to do something to change the outcome of the game...he was already checked out...and at a Travis Scott concert within a couple hours of the game ending. There is no way anyone can watch that game 6 and think that Harden was mentally present. He wasnt.

If you think Kobe's effort that series against the Pistons was lacking, I'd suggest going back and re-watching. He still talks about how pissed he is about that series because they ran into a defense that didnt allow them to run the offense they were used to running. Regardless, he still busted his ass.

 

Does PER consider 1 on 1 defense, perimeter defense, pick n roll defense? Because, you know, that's HALF of the NBA game. Kind of matters.

 

2017-2018 - Harden DEF WS - .042
2005-2006 - Bryant DEF WS - .041

Harden is, again, an underrated defender while Kobe is overrated. We both just saw Harden win a game with a defensive stop last night. A game in which he had 6 steals.

 

Skill-wise, he might be number two or three, with MJ and Drexler up there above him. Better than Kobe by a mile.

 

Def WS are a terrible indicator. Having said that, Harden playing solid defense this season. But, Kobe was elite most of his career, despite what that stat says. There's just no good way to measure defense other than watching.

 

Another point of reference on the Harden debate from ESPN's player ranking:

"Harden actually finished with the highest average game score last week but did it in half the games of both James and Antetokounmpo, hence the slide down to third. It was an incredibly efficient week for Harden, as he posted 38.5 PPG while cracking 50-40-90 and averaging just 80 touches per game -- his fewest in any week this season, according to Second Spectrum. For the season, Harden’s average game score now sits at 25.6, which is higher than any guard over the past 30 seasons not named Michael Jordan. That includes Stephen Curry from his unanimous MVP campaign in 2015-16."

Look, whatever people believe about Harden v. Kobe, I hope we can all agree that Harden has been historically brilliant this year. If this year is a future indicator of what CP3 era Harden will deliver for the next 3 - 4 years, we'll be legitimately talking about Harden in the same breath as Jordan, Curry and Lebron. Yes - his GM5 meltdown was unacceptable. Yes he doesn't have a ring (yet...). But he's taken one of the all time great seasons as a Guard (2016-2017) and Improved on it significantly this year. He's upped every aspect of his game and he's beginning to address all of his historical knocks - defensive effort, clutch shooting at crunch time and ability to win when opposing defenses take away his primary game. He's done this in a season where the NBA added a rule specifically designed to negate one of his top weapons (3 point line free throws) and he's done it coming back from a devastating off-season fail that many people thought would psychologically impact his confidence.

Harden deserves mad props and to at least be in the "is he greater than Kobe" discussion. Time will tell if he solidifies that position with a ring, an MVP trophy and with longevity.

 

I think Kobe is overrated, but he is still a top 11-15 player of all time.

Harden can catch him, but hasn't yet IMO

 

kobe would have had more moves in his arsenal down the stretch.