Man, Duckworth hasn't produced crap w/ us. I know Wagner hasn't done much being on the IR, but he has saved a lot of games so far for them.
Only if Taylor Bucholz pans out. Or, if you buy the argument that getting rid of him was the only reason we could sign Pettite, and then Clemens (which I don't... Drayton would have ponied up the $$$ anyways), then its already been a good deal for us.
hmm... who would i rather have, Roger Clemens or Billy Wagner. This isn't a difficult question to answer. The only way we were getting either Pettitte and Clemens was to ship out the astros biggest whiner. Duckworth wasn't why we made the trade, it's too early to tell if the young prospect we got will become the pitcher we hope he will.
Wagner for Astacio Bucholz Duckworth Clemens Pettite Fans Money Excitement Yeah, I think it worked out alright.
As I said above, I don't know how valid the money thing is (but the whining part is right on the money)... I think everybody in the orgnaization likes saying the money angle because they don't want to say, "Hey... Wagner was an ass, and he made his bed with those comments he made at the end of last year." Hun probably still wanted to keep him... but Drayton said no (almost led to Hun's departure over the summer). Also, Drayton's a smart man... he was goin after Pettite regardless. He knew the effect it would have on the gate, let alone the chance of getting Roger to come out of retirement. I mean, if you're seriously goin for it all, $$$ shouldn't have been a factor, especially since Wagner was already signed, and we would have had an AMAZING team with him as well... but his comments really rubbed Drayton the wrong way.
Totally... Tavares will be running circles around the league, while Jeriome is a 31 year old middle reliever. Can he seriously not crack that Cleveland rotation??
What kind of pitcher is this Bucholz supposed to be? Is he a top prospect? Starting rotation potential? Can anyone give me a "scoutng report" on the guy? I'd appreciate it. Thanks!
Not really a scouting report, but a mention in today's Chronicle: New Orleans righthander Taylor Buchholz allowed two runs and struck out eight in seven innings in the Zephyrs' 5-3 loss to Nashville on Friday, retiring 16 in a row during one stretch.
He is touted as one of the hottest prospects pitching wise at the moment from everyone i have heard. That's the only reason the deal was done. They wanted that prospect. We have a good farm system for pitching and we have shown it with Miller, Oswalt, Hernadez and past pitchers. I have read many places that even if we had kept Wagner at the money he wanted we would have still been able to get Pettite and Clemens becuase of the deals that they signed and how their contracts pan out. We weren't even in the running for Pettite until we noticed that the yankees weren't really bothering to talk to him. The Wagner deal was done way before we had intentions to talk to pettitte becuase we didn't know the yankees would not pursue him becuase they thought they had him locked up and didn't have to worry.
It also helps that he's built strong... about 6'4-6'5, long armed... just like a power pitcher should be. Then again, so was Scott Elarton.
I didn't realize we traded Wagner for Pettitte and Clemens. I feel they shouldn't even be brought into the equation since they were not part of the trade. If we needed the money to sign them, I wish Hidalgo and his overpriced salary could have been dumped.
this is what it boils down to. Someone had to go, and the 9 million dollar a year closer was the easiest target. So, when asking if the Wagner trade worked out i do believe you can take those guys into account. And you can wish we traded Hidalgo all you want but that was easier said then done. No one wanted a 12 million dollar outfielder, when they can get the same production from someone who makes half of that.
I sorta disagree here. I think Nick and Stack24 have it right here. I don't really buy this argument that Pettitte and Clemens were only possible without Wagner. Clemens came on because of Pettitte and Clemens' contract was a mere formality to Drayton. Pettitte came on in the end because of the problems with the Yankees, but everyone knew that the Astros were generally interested in Pettitte even before the Wagner trade. I am not complaining that Wagner should still be around mind you, b/c I think he earned his ticket outta here with his comments at the end of the season, regardless. Still, I think that the comments from the organization about the Wagner trade and its aftermath are somewhat misleading.
Well Clemens' contract and signing imo are simply irrelevant because Drayton made that $5 million back and more as soon as the signing was announced and he knew that. Forget Clemems' actual performance on the mound, from a business standpoint, Drayton paid $5 million to make millions more back virtually instantly. So the question is whether or not Pettitte would have been signed with Wagner still on the books. Given that there were rumors flying before even the end of the World Series about Pettitte wanting to come to Houston, it is safe to say that there was interest before Wagner was traded. Of course, the Pettitte signing could have been contingent on Wagner being traded even then, but I guess we'll never know. The point is that there was talk of Pettitte before anything happened and so I think it is fair to be at least skeptical as to what management was saying.
there was also talk before the World Series ever began that Wagner had pitched his last game in an Astros uniform. Wagner himself said it before the last game of the regular season. what i'm saying is this...there is no way the Astros make the offer they made to Pettitte without Wagner's number off the books. yes, pettitte said he was "interested" in houston, because it was home. but ultimately, it was the rejection he felt from the Yankees because, according to him, they never really matched the money offer the 'stros made...or if they did, they matched it way too late. he felt disrespected. i think Astros management rightfully felt like Pettitte was a longshot...and that he sorta fell into their laps as a byproduct of the Yankees mismanaging those negotiations. but wagner was to be gone, anyway....i'm not saying they got rid of wagner to go out and get pettitte...i am saying that without getting rid of wagner, there is no way they make the offer they ultimately did.
I don't belive this part only for the fact that Pettite did take a pay cut to come to the astros becuase the money that the Yankees were offering him was more. He just decided that he wanted to come to houston becuase he saw we wanted him and of course his home is here. I think that if we had kept billy that Drayton would not have passed up on a chance to have Pettite because he automatically knows the draw it will have just like he did when he paid Clemens the money. They could have easily traded Wagner in the middle of the season to a contender if they were really worried about the money aspect. Drayton would have been stupid to not sign pettite when he saw he was not as wanted by the yankees even if wagner was here.
Elarton had a serious hitch in his delivery, unlike TB. Dierker shoulders (pun most definitely intended) a ton of blame for the way he used Elarton. That's only if you believe every single statement made by Gerry Hunsicker on the subject. He has said several times, reported here in the local media, that "without the Wagner deal, there is no way we sign Andy Pettitte." But of course his reputation as a b.s. artist precedes him...uh...not. "Payroll flexibility" was Hun's mantra all off-season. He had 2 high $ expendable guys - one was attractive on the market (Wagner), one was not (Hidalgo). Guess which one got traded? "For us, this was a matter of trying to regain some flexibility in our budget. We'd just gotten to the point where we had a small number of players eating up a significant portion of our payroll. And it created an inflexibility to do anything. So as painful as this was, it was something we had to begin to address." -- Gerry Hunsicker I can't believe we're having this discussion again.
