u.s.s. liberty - new revelations on 1967 attack by israel

What was the point of that comment?

 

I have yet to read a logical explanation for the attack, or the lack of response by the Navy, apparently told not to come to the aid of their own. And I fail to see why hammering Israel about this, which I think they deserve, is in any way antisemitic. To me, there are a host of clues, but no answers.



D&D. Impeach Bush for Promoting Torture.

 

Either way you look at this, it was 40 years ago, and the result was either from friendly fire, or because Israel caught the US spying on them. Either way I'm sure Johnson wanted it put to rest, and either way it isn't nearly as fishy as the certain ship 3 years before attacked in the (ahem) Gulf of Tonkin (ahem).

If you want to argue for ceasing military aid to Israel, I can think of much more credible (and recent) reasons to do so. And the funny thing is, if such a thing were to happen, more Israelis than you think would probably be happy with the idea, especially on the Left and Far-Right, who think the U.S. is respectively either detrimental to peace, or detrimental to Judaism (aka continuing the colonization of the West Bank).

But the charge that Israel as a nation has an undue effect on U.S. policy is unfounded. If you mean AIPAC, you are talking about about a very narrow (albeit damn well funded and outpoken) interest, that being Jewish Americans who support Likud (see: Neo-Cons), now an opposition (and minority) party in Israel with goals and opinions well right of the general population in both the U.S. and Israel, and have not set policy here since the ill-fated Netanyahu administration. AIPAC itself has done a hell of a lot more damage to US-Israeli relations than the Israeli Air Force ever did (see Pollard, Jonathan).

Most of the aid and military support Israel gets is part of the Camp David deal brokered by Carter, and Egypt gets almost as much. They are still by far the biggest benficiaries of U.S. taxpayer kitty (with the Saudis I believe a distant and justifiable third), and this military aid is the foundation (unfortunately) of the "peace" between them.

As it is, Israel is completely beholden to the wills of whatever president is in office, and Sec's of State all the way back to McNamara regularly "advise" Israel on how to conduct (or instigate) their wars. Israel doesn't make any major decisions without consulting Big Brother, and has been told to back off on agreements that have been Israel's best interests (but not the U.S.) like sales to Cuba and China and what not. Seriously dude, Mexico and Canada exercise more sovereignity than Israel does. I don't know how many articles I read in Israeli dailies following the presidential race in the U.S. because people are concerned what the future president well say to "influence" policy here.

It's a common saying here that Islamcists hate the "Big Satan" more than the "Little One." American journalists are a much bigger kidnap prize than Israeli soliders, my friend. Israel is largely a target to Jihadniks because it is seen as the West's colony in the Middle East, and not as one would think, becasue of its own injustices against the Arab population. It is the proxy America, with lip gloss and topless bars, and decadent materialist culture.

But I seriously doubt any major candidate or any sizeable group of congressmen would ever support divesting from Israel. As ironic as it sounds, U.S. government leaders are more unifromly supportive of the policies of the Israeli government than any Israeli newspaper editor, pudit or opposition politician not named Netanyahu.

I sure as hell won't defend the command aparatus of the Israeli military or it's embarassingly corrupt government. My own acedotal experience seeing the crappy way it manages and treats its soldiers (mostly draftees I might add) is enough. Israel's army accomplishes what it does because its soldiers are motivated to protect their family's security, not because their leaders are sound.

If I'm not mistaken, I remember reading a few years ago that the Israelis released all their record about the Liberty. For what it's worth I recall even reading a transcript of the radio communications that supported the claim that it was an accident. I suggest looking for it, but if you are hell bent on believing in conspiracies, I suppose there's no primary source that's going to change your mind.

The Liberty is a favorite topic for anti-Israel trolls of whatever stripe, and you really have to be careful what you read. No, bashing Israel doesn't make you an anti-semite, any more than bashing the U.S. makes you anti-American. If that weren't the case, you'd be able to charge every person that lives here with hate crimes against themselves.

But the fact remains that Israel is treated like a U.S. colony, both by American policy makers and the people who hate Israel the most (Palestenians). If Israel had to suddenly fend for itself, I think you'd see stronger relations with its more immediate regional neighbors and Europe, out of existential need (Israel's bylaw) and that would NOT be in the U.S.'s best interests.

This country does America's dirty work, and for bargain basement prices. If this relationship is severed it would be at Israel's behest and not the United States, because it would be to Israel's long-term gain more than America's. It wasn't so long ago, Bush was awfully upset about Israel selling advanced military tech to China that would have brought in tons of money and created a plethora of much needed jobs...and the deal was killed. Bear in mind, Israel has no say-so in who the U.S. sells its high technology to (Egypt and the Saudis come to mind).

I don't what else to say except that the world sucks and to be careful what you read, because everyone has an agenda. I can't think of deader hourse than the bombing of the U.S.S. Liberty. If you want reasons to hate Israel I'll be happy to send you a list of better things to be upset about.

 

Facts:
1) US and Israel were not allies at the time
2) US didn't believe it was merely a Israel's mistake according to wikipedia
3) Yitzhak Rabin said Israel will sink any unidentified ships in the area and US didn't tell Israel abt USS Liberty

So my guess is that the motive is to keep good on Rabin's words. As to lack of aid to USS Liberty, maybe other ships are just too far away?

 

It could not be friendly fire because Israel and US were not friends back then.

 

They were not???

 

Not until 1968 according to wikipedia

 

I'm not sure who that's directed to, but if it's directed at me, you're off your rocker, with all due respect.




D&D. Impeach Bush for Promoting Torture.

 

According to the PBS, the US was supporting the Israeli government at the time, providing military intelligence and military equipments as well, if I remembered correctly.

 

Somehow I seriously doubt that. If it has been so well known, why are we talking about "new" relevations now?

Why not? Errors during wartime that cost human lives do happen.

"The Israeli and American governments conducted multiple inquiries into the incident, and issued reports concluding that the attack was the result of a mistake, caused by confusion among the Israeli attackers about the precise identity of the USS Liberty and the fact that the United States Ambassador to the United Nations had publicly announced to the world at the U.N. that the United States had no ships within 350 miles of Israel and the battle."- Wikipedia

 

Based on what I read at wikipedia, I would not call that a mistake. It is more like Israel was adopting a "shoot first ask question later" kind of approach like Blackwater. Unfortunately we were at the receiving end of that.

 

Even if you "shoot first ask later" theory is correct, they were not intentionally trying to kill American soldiers.

 

I don't think my posts in this thread made any claim that they intentionally try to kill American soldiers. I think they intentionally kill soldiers but not necessarily American ones.

 

Nice post Deji. We're talking about the 4th day in the Six Day War...

Deckard, with all due respect, other than the somewhat condescending tone, not sure why the disdain for Deji's post.


Here's some other reference material:

http://www.nsa.gov/liberty/

 

Basically, he says I hate Israel. Excuse me, but all that proves is that he hasn't paid the least bit of attention to what I've posted regarding Israel in this forum.



D&D. Impeach Bush for Promoting Terrorism.

 

I didn't get the impression that it was addressed to you, but I understand.

Not defending the Israeli action in any manner, but that was six particular days in history that you would not want to be anywhere within striking distance of the Israeli army.

Just ask Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq...

 

Yeah, I visited the region a couple of years before. One couldn't travel to Israel directly from Egypt or Jordan. It was weird looking across the border into Israel. Definitely looked a lot greener, even back then. I stayed at the King David Hotel, which was a trip in and of itself.

I want to point a couple of things out. It is my own impression, based on what I read, etc., about the incident at the time that has caused me to believe that the attack was deliberate. Now, I couldn't understand why, and still don't. I won't argue that US/Israeli relations weren't the best. LBJ particularly didn't want to become a big arms supplier to Israel. I'm not sure if he was afraid of becoming embroiled in a ME conflict during Vietnam, or what, but relations were closer during the Kennedy Administration. Perhaps the Israelis seriously thought Johnson might attempt to "influence" the outcome of the war, using intelligence from the Liberty? I doubt that, but at least it might give a reason for an attack, however misguided.

I do not and never have hated Israel. Quite the contrary. There have been Israeli governments I intensely disliked, just as there have been American governments that fit that description, including the current one. And that has nothing to do with how how I feel about Israel or the United States.



D&D. Impeach Bush for Promoting Torture.