1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Tucker loses arbitration hearing?

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Dubious, Feb 10, 2023.

  1. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Messages:
    18,316
    Likes Received:
    5,088
    Does anyone know how they work? How can Tucker produce like the top RF in the American League and lose, from 7.5 million down to 5 million? By any comparative metric he has equal production to the RF's making $25 million and way better then those around $12.

    https://oddsjam.com/mlb/highest-paid-rf
     
  2. sealclubber1016

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    19,180
    Likes Received:
    28,021
    Arbitration salaries are based on precedent of past arbitration salaries and service time. It's his first year of arbitration, and the salary will escalate each year.

    Long story short both sides put in a number, and whoever is closest to the "precedent" as decided by the arbiter will win, his team put in a number that was too high.

    Arbitration earnings effect future arbitration cases as well (by setting precedent), it's why teams fight so hard to keep the numbers as low as they can despite seeming insignificant in the grand scheme.
     
    #2 sealclubber1016, Feb 10, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  3. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,959
    Likes Received:
    14,033
    Arbitration salaries are not based on free agent market prices. First year of arbitration is usually about 20% or so of free agent rate.
     
    Marshall Bryant and Dubious like this.
  4. panamamyers

    panamamyers Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2000
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    There is a reason teams like to have players under team control in pre arbitration and subsequently arbitration years and it's not so that they can pay them fair market price for their performances.
     
  5. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Messages:
    18,316
    Likes Received:
    5,088
    I hope it is an incentive to both sides to get the long term deal done. The Astros should realize that the number is ridiculously low and not a positive for Tuckers relationship with the team. And Tucker's agent should realize that the best and fastest way to get him paid commensurate with his relative value is to get a deal done soon.
     
  6. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2001
    Messages:
    29,296
    Likes Received:
    5,408
    It is a weird system. Springer got $3.9M his first year, but Mookie Betts got $10.5M. Betts did have an extra season before arbitration though, so that adds to the difference. Even with Tucker being a traditional arbitration, I'd guess playing fewer games due to COVID season did help. Makes his numbers more comparable to Super-2 cases of the past.
     
  7. Marshall Bryant

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    4,808
    Apples and Oranges. His salary is set by what players of similar situation (First year eligible - not super 2) have received. It is not a comparison of all players and arbitration has never been that. Considering the numbers for Bo Bichette were identical after submitting their figure which adjusts for everything and he signed a 3 year deal for $33.6M, we have a great comp for value to avoid any further arbitration hearings in Arb2 and Arb3. $28.6M for 2 years.

    Now add FA years @ $30-$35M per year and that's the ballpark value excluding owner desperation. A popular length with the Astros Owner has been 6 years, so an extension of $150M - $170M for 6 ADDITIONAL years should be in the ball park.
    2023 $5M
    2024 - 2029 6 year extension ~ $160M. ( remaining 2 arb years and 4 Years of FA)
     
  8. Marshall Bryant

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    4,808
    As much moaning as there is about players being underpaid Millionaires, it was actually an improvement over Lifetime control which was the norm before Marvin Miller. He was a Saint or Satan, depending on which side you were on.

    Back in those days, players could be hoarded and never see the big leagues if they were stuck behind a star and they could not go elsewhere. Then they created Free Agency and Arbitration to compromise salaries between team control and FA in year 6. As many things are, it was a compromise between owner wanting 6 years of CC and players Union wanting 3 years of CC. This is why FA values are not a direct part of the comparables equation.
     
    #8 Marshall Bryant, Feb 10, 2023
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2023
  9. IdStrosfan

    IdStrosfan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2021
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    6,236
    You are very right about this.

    The problem is that owners are business men thinking about money. They are not athletes thinking about winning.

    Professional sports are businesses not "sports"

    If owners' #1 priority was winning then they would invest most of revenue back into the team.

    Instead they collude to keep payroll at certain levels and make player decisions based on how much the player makes instead of how much he helps the team.
     
  10. Marshall Bryant

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    4,808
    Just to reiterate a point. Fair Market value is different for Pre arb, arb and FAs. Many wrongly assume FA Market value IS Fair Market Value.
     
  11. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    54,294
    Likes Received:
    113,099
    Tucker isn't like that.

    Tucker since day one has taken the position that business is business.

    Some players take the arbitration process very personal - I would be shocked if Tucker is one of those players.
     
    rockbox and Marshall Bryant like this.
  12. Marshall Bryant

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    4,808
    There is also an element of addressing competition between teams in different sized markets. You don't want the league to become an exhibition with 29 teams playing the role of the Washington Generals to The Harlem Globetrotters.
     
  13. Marshall Bryant

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    4,808
    As businessmen, they do realize that winning enhanced revenue. So even if their motivation is JUST MONEY, they want to win as well.
     
  14. panamamyers

    panamamyers Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2000
    Messages:
    1,317
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    I understand that and am not trying to suggest that the players deserve any more than what the process currently is.
    I was just explaining why teams like to have the controllable players. You get players for much less money than what someone else would be willing to pay them if that option existed in the agreement.
     
  15. IdStrosfan

    IdStrosfan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2021
    Messages:
    5,495
    Likes Received:
    6,236
    Of course most of them are somewhere between Pittsburgh (don't ever spend anything and who cares if they even keep score) and New York Mets (I have more money than I can possibly use anyway and this is my new toy. Let's buy a World Series)

    But I wish it was a non profit league and Winning trumped all else when it came to personnel decisions.
     
  16. Marshall Bryant

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    4,808
    Agreed. This is more of a technical point where much confusion reigns. "Fair" market value only exist among the category much like Fair Market value in one city cannot be compared to Fair Market Value in a different city or even in different neighborhoods in the same city.
     
  17. Marshall Bryant

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    8,882
    Likes Received:
    4,808
    I don't think any sport should ever be a non profit charity. I don't even like professional fundraisers for charities who skim off huge chunks for their fundraising. I can't conceive that any professional sport would be less corrupt.
     
  18. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,428
    Likes Received:
    15,860
    FWIW, athletes are also thinking about money. Winning will almost always come in a secondary goal once they've secured the money - and rightfully so, since its their jobs and livelihoods. The MLBPA's job is to maximize player income, rather than making the sport better or more fair.
     
    Astrofan59 and Marshall Bryant like this.
  19. rockets1995

    rockets1995 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,379
    Likes Received:
    6,584
    Scott Boras is Tuckers Agent, Another Boras guys are Altuve and Bregman.

    Extend Framber Valdez at least.
     
  20. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,959
    Likes Received:
    14,033
    As a fan, I'd say the owners do more in the CBA to make the game fair than the players as parity helps the small market owners make more money.
     
    Major likes this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now