Thoughts on gender change for young kids

In the past didn't they just grow up to be gay dudes?

Why can't they just be gay dudes?

Why do we have to normalize hacking your biology so drastically and permanently?

I'm pretty liberal on most social issues but letting kids introduce hormones into their bodies doesn't sit well.

 

I’m not arguing that there are kids who feel as if they are a different gender than what they were born

I couldn’t care less about someone’s personal gender identity but I don’t understand how you can be okay with KIDS chemical changing their body’s at such a young age

I also don’t care that you can show sources of positive effects because that could be biased and bullshit

We have no idea what the long term affects are of giving kids hormonal altering drugs both mentally/physically

 

This made me crack up

Because hardcore social justice warriors are do or die without thinking of long term consequences

They’re all about instant gratification without long term thinking

 

I'm okay with it because they get put on hormone blockers which are reversible and not permanent. Estrogen and Testosterone are suggested to kids 16 years and older, I read that usually it is at 18, and I Think at these ages people usually know a bit about their sexuality.

I think the horror story that people peddle is just that, a horror story. There is always an exception to the rule, I remember the story of one lady pushing it on their kid, but other than that I tend to believe that most adults that allow it are responsible and working with doctors step by step, until someone shows me otherwise I have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

Well see now we are reaching middle ground with 16 or 18. I couldn’t care less if a 18 year old wanted to start even though I think early 20s is a good age. That’s at least when I kind of settled and accepted who I am along with others I see my age.

I personally had drug counseling for addiction a couple years ago. Mostly came from social anxiety/depression and they were telling me that it is human nature for people to focus on social acceptance/status up until around the age 25 and that’s when people tend to settle with who they are and shift focus

Hormone blockers are one thing but sex changes is a huge decision that I think 18 is still to young. Myself at 18 & 27 are two completely different people and outlooks on life

I’m talking about children where we don’t know what the effects are starting so young and disrupting the natural body growth through adolescence and teenage years

I read a story where in California a mother was trying to press charges on the father for child abuse for not letting a 5 year old start doing hormone therapy. That’s just crazy to me

 

I've also read that story and that's what I meant by there are some cases where obviously the parents are looney...but we always have looney parents.

I'll say right now it is a case by case thing and it should remain that way, everyone is different. Some trans people don't even want to fully transition any way but some people know when they are young that this is what they want, when you look at what I posted about DSDs and other things, science shows there is a reason for this. So I feel like we are delaying the inevitable for some people and there is a dramatic difference in transitioning that late, early 20s.

Basically, say your a boy and you've always felt you should be a girl but parents or law stop you till you are 21. By this time, your voice has deepened, by this time your body has given you testosterone so you have facial hair maybe and you just look like a man. You transition at this age that can't be changed.

If you start on hormone blockers at 13, this stuff doesn't happen, and a lot of trans people that transition young, I should say all, look like their perceived sex. Not that they can't doing it much later, it's just much harder, so it's really not an option of "Oh, I just can wait..." It's high stakes either way.

 

I'll also add what I said last time this discussion popped up...

It's always "What about the children?"

What about them? Where is the outrage on how parents feed their children? Child Obesity affects more kids than Gender Dysphoria, way more, and it affects them just as dramatically for the rest of their lives. There's a hundred different ways a parent can affect their child's lives and it seems like people are focusing on something that affects less than 1% of kids.

 

They didn't mind the attacks when they did the bathroom bills. They didn't have to come out and state that the current evidence does not support reassignment surgeries being beneficial, but they did.

It doesn't cure their gender dysphoria. There is a big difference between alleviating and eliminating. Chemo fails when it does not eliminate cancer. Just like these surgeries fail when they look in the mirror and realize what they have done to themselves.

Interracial marriages are between consenting adults. I have said over and over that adults could do as they wish with their bodies even if it is wrong.

Gay people aren't happy either and for the same reason. If the trends of depression, suicide, drug use, etc. continue with transgender people, then there won't be a wrong side of history here.

They are not reversible. You can't stop someone's development and then continue it years later without any loss.

Also, if there were cases, you would support them. You just aren't willing to admit it.

The science that you have shown is a video that discusses abnormalities that are rare. It attempts to make a connection to gender dysphoria, but most people with gender dysphoria were not born with those abnormalities. Then you showed studies that linked certain brain structures to transgender people. But, would you be willing to use brain scans as a litmus test for who is or isn't trans? I doubt it. In the end, you won't really care about the science - if someone feels a certain way, you will accept it.

The idea is that once they get over the trauma, they will accept themselves as who they are.

You act as though my entire argument has been common sense. I have brought studies to the table, as well.

Again, sex is not binary when one is born with rare abnormalities. But few trans people are born with those gender abnormalities. Gender could be binary even to trans people. In fact, trans people sometimes feel some type of way about gender-fluid people or multiple gender people. They're all a mess, really, because none of them are in the right.

I would support laws that make it illegal to experiment on kids, but adults could do whatever to themselves even if I don't personally agree with them.

You keep bringing up common sense and gut beliefs, but the strongest study put up so far is the long-term study that I posted that showed the negative effects of gender reassignment surgeries.

 

That's not at all what they said.

"Curing" Gender Dysphoria is not what you think it is, as my following post states, experts and people that have studied this for decades now think 'Curing' Gender Dysphoria means letting people transition. You think they are wrong...with what data backing you up?

Gay people aren't happy because of the same reason, I agree, and that reason is people like you constantly reminding them that they are ill and that something is wrong with them and that they need to be cured.

No, you are flat out wrong here again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker

You're just wrong here. Stop talking about what I would and wouldn't support based on hypotheticals. The fact is that they are reversible.

There is no proof to the bolded claim.

As for the brain scans, no, because I don't care who is or isn't trans as much as you do. I'm willing to live and let live and trust the science and experts in the field.

Again, this 'IDEA' of yours is not supported by doctors that actually have to deal with this. But, I guess you know better than they do.

A study that says SRS alleviates Gender Dysphoria? This has been most of your argument, the study doesn't support any of your claims.

It doesn't support your claim that Trans people are just experiencing trauma and need LOVE to 'get better'.
It doesn't support your claim that Trans youth are just confused children.

It doesn't support a single claim you've made, in fact, it contradicts your argument more than it supports it.

Sources needed once again. We're acting like Trans people are not rare in the first place. Sex isn't binary, period.

Trans people sometimes feel any kind of way, they are people with a wide range of beliefs.

You keep bringing up a study that showed that SRS helps Trans people. I'm not sure why you think this study backs your cause when it literally states that it helps trans people with Gender Dysphoria.

Since this post is long I'll show you WHY you are wrong about this study because you read it incorrectly...

 

@JumpMan regarding
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

A separate post so it doesn't get lost and hopefully you address being wrong here.

This is what the LEAD AUTHOR says about the study you think supports your argument.

https://www.transadvocate.com/fact-...ition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

More, FROM THE LEAD AUTHOR OF THE STUDY...so you can't turn her away now that you've used her as an authority.

Even more...

So you know...I don't know what else to say, the study you used as a backbone for your argument simply doesn't support your argument, in the author's wrong words.

As D.Wade beautifully put, these people aren't the problem. You are. But hopefully, the best of us learn and grow and stop judging others, especially when you don't understand them at all.

 

The title of this thread is "Thoughts on Gender Change ...."


Maybe the title is misleading .... and leads people to believe somethings happening that isn't in actual gender reassignment cause gender hasn't truly changed up to that point.

 

The world is not going to bend to trans, gay or lesbians to the point where they'll feel the same as. It's just impossible.

They can carve out their little lives and those that can make peace with themselves will be fine. The rest of the world is not going to stop celebrating coupling in straight land, shacking up and having children.

That's always going to be the ideal, the norm.

 

Maybe, I was just replying to some of the comments that seem to suggest that kids are having surgery on their genitals. I always ask these questions sincerely, if someone has a troubling case like that I'd love to read about it.

Maybe, irrelevant to the point that he used that study wrong and misinterpreted though, that study wasn't even about whether gender reassignment makes trans people happier or not.

I would disagree too on it being impossible, the younger generation is more open to it and the science is only going to make transitioning easier, not harder. We are going to get to a point (at this rate) where people can even still be fertile after transitioning and once we reach that point then what would really be the difference from someone born with a vagina vs someone given one?

These are not questions for this generation but for the ones after and they seem more than open to not only answering these questions but accepting those that would ask these questions. The trend is towards acceptance not away from it.

I just think when it comes to civil rights it is important to be diligent. Make it so the laws respect the people, once we are at that point, people can do whatever they please.

 

This attitude is a strong reason why parents push early age gender assignment if they have the means.

 

That seems a strange statement ... "Gay people aren't happy ...."

No , I doubt that they like being ragged on constantly for being outside the norms of society ...


But getting to the core of sex - its about propagation of the species. You have to wonder what causes the human mind to go against something so basic and absolutely necessary to the species / life in general. How does that affect the individual - self doubt , questioning why am I different ?

Found this article while searching what other species are homosexual .... kinda interesting.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150206-are-there-any-homosexual-animals

 

Just have to address the bold - Transition does not make for a sexually , natural reproductive individual. It doesn't change the chromosomes - That's an impossibility.

It doesn't wont and cant give a former opposite sex the internal equipment and molecular ability to reproduce in a natural way.

At some point it may allow for two individuals to reproduce with medical help but that's far from what you describe.

 

I think the general confusion from people is thinking it's strictly a mental disorder. Again roughly 2% of the world's population, roughly 120 million people, or roughly a third of the entire U.S. population if all clumped together, suffers from sort of atypical sexual identification for a myriad of reasons. That SciShow video even cited a man that was a father of four who thought he was experiencing a hernia only to discover during examination that he had a uterus inside of him all his life as well. These are people who for all intents and purposes, if you did see their junk, you too would be like, "Huh? Oh...**** I dunno what to label that either."

I think even transgender people can understand the idea from even their opposition that gender for most is binary. Otherwise a transgender person would opt for a third different type of sex change that is neither vagina or a penis. I just think it's odd to shame someone for having a genetic defect that really mires what to sexually identify them as and that it is a personal choice for those who have those types of complications.

If I had both a penis and a vagina and my uterus was barren but my testes could still produce offspring, I'd probably want to identify as a male despite having both sex organs. What an odd sentence to type that roughly 120 million of the human population seriously has weighing on their shoulders. Like I really can't even imagine but I won't go so far as to shame someone who is dealing with that right now. To each their own though.

 

The statement is just a sarcastic response to his "Trans people aren't happy..." statement. I said that these people are more likely to suffer from depression because of societal pressure, studies support this and I agree with these studies as being LGBTQ+ is different from depression and people need to clearly separate these things instead of conflate them. I didn't mean to sound like I am saying gay people are inherently unhappy, I know that's not true, as I've mentioned before my lifelong best friend is gay and he's generally a happy person with a lot going on in his life.

As for the whole reproduction question, this a huge question that than us and is a very question of being. As you show, homosexuality happens in nature too and I definitely have no idea or even want to theorize the how or why it happens although I'm super curious as well, I mean the question that was posed in the article that it must be evolutionary relevant.

For humans though, I think it is a variety of reasons. We are the only animals on the planet that do a lot of things exclusively. It is a very interesting question I've asked myself though and I'm sure it will puzzle us a while yet.

Of course, but I don't think we are as far as you think.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...n-uterus-transphobia-motherhood-a8784536.html

I remember watching an entire episode about it on the science channel too, it will be harder for transmen definitely, but uterus implants are right around the corner and by that I mean within 50 or so years, and when that happens I imagine it's going to change what it means being transgender.

I'm never one to doubt or limit science and as I mentioned before, I don't care about 'natural' to me, the natural world is meant to be manipulated, humanity has proven that time and time again.

 

From the memo:

"Based on an extensive assessment of the clinical evidence as described above, there is not enough high quality evidence to determine whether gender reassignment surgery improves health outcomes for Medicare beneficiaries with gender dysphoria and whether patients most likely to benefit from these types of surgical intervention can be identified prospectively."

https://www.cms.gov/medicare-covera...decision-memo.aspx?NCAId=282&bc=ACAAAAAAQAAA&

You said that alleviate and eliminate are the same thing. They are not. My point was that the surgeries don't eliminate/cure their gender dysphoria.

Again, if they were in the right, they would not care what anyone says about them. The fact that they need EVERYONE to support them should tell you something. I mean, they have plenty of support from people like you. Is your support less important than my disapproval?

I don't care what that says. You can't tell me that I or anyone else could have stopped developing for several years and still be the same person today. People only grow for a certain amount of time so it makes absolutely no sense that I could take years from that time and still end up as the same person.

You are the type that will support anything. Like you state below, live and let live. So I am sure you would be fine with children undergoing SRS if they are occurring now or when they do at some point in the future.

I think we need to get some definitions set, you claim there are more than 2 sexes. By sexes, I believe you mean chromosomes like XX or XY. The video you posted talks about people born with XXX and XXY chromosomes. Those people are statistically rarer than people with gender dysphoria. Therefore, even though you are correct in saying there are more than 2 sexes, those people born that way are so rare that I don't see the point in discussing them in this context. In that way, I am correct in saying that most people with gender dysphoria are not born with those abnormalities, ie, most people with gender dysphoria are either XX or XY.

You trust science when it suits you. You brought up the differing brains of transgender people, but if those conditions are not met, you would be willing to agree with whatever a person is feeling.

The study supports my belief that trans people will never be happy. The trans people in the study were worse off after their surgeries by many measures.

People with multiple personality disorders are also thought to be covering up trauma and that belief is still held today. Gender dysphoric people had similar beliefs attached to them. Not too long ago the DSM labeled them as having a disorder. So my belief that trans people are also covering up trauma is not as radical as you make it seem.

Sex isn't binary, I agree, but the non-binary sex people are rarer than gender dysphoric people so I don't see the point in discussing them here. I'm sure some overlap, but I wonder if at all disproportionately.

I probably read about the problems trans people had with gender-fluid people, but I don't remember where. I do remember Dave Chappelle talking about that in his Sticks and Stones comedy special and a YouTube video where a wide range of LGBT people got together to discuss their issues. In it, they didn't all or always stand up for each other and they divided each other at times based on many things including trans people and gender-fluid people. Again, none of them were okay.

What??

"This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered."

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

In what way can I read the above conclusion incorrectly?

None of what the author said refutes her findings. She regrets what people have done with her research - if I wanted to continue to have a career in that field, I would, too -. She basically says that SRS helps with their gender dysphoria - I agree -, but further help is needed - I agree -, and she blames society on all of the problems they have faced since their surgeries - I strongly disagree -. That type of thinking will eventually lead to any disagreement with them becoming illegal. Because, again, when you are in the wrong you need EVERYONE to agree with you to be at peace with yourself. But when you are in the right, you will not need ANYONE to agree with you.

My argument is that SRS will not make them happy. The study showed that it didn't. Even the author in the interview you posted trying to defend herself notes the differences between the people who had the surgeries prior to some year as if things had improved for transgender people since. Which is possible, but it is also possible that as more time passes those same people who are now happy with their decision will one day live to regret it.

As far as what Wade said, he was one of the best basketball players ever, but what he is doing with his son is wrong. Besides that, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a little sugar in his tank. Also, I am not judging anyone. What I am doing is discerning right from wrong, but when you tell someone that is wrong that they are wrong it definitely feels like judgment to them.