You people are amazing in that you think you have discovered the truth over years of hard science and study. You know what happens to trans people that are denied their transition? They kill themselves. You know what happens to trans people that aren't denied their transition? They live moderately happy lives. It's not that they need YOUR approval, I doubt they care at all what tradcons think of them, what they need is for you to not give a f**** about their lives and focus on you. Do you. Stop denying them rights and making their only life that much harder to live. Especially since you are just going to deny the science of it and act ignorant about it.
People are always bringing up these hypotheticals that do not happen. Outside of the rare looney case parents don't force their kids to change gender, what happens is the kid doesn't think they were born as the sex they are, they discuss it with a doctor and their family for a year, a doctor then has to approve it and treatment starts. I ask for examples of children having gender reassignment therapy and I've got nothing but long rants about how "It just ain't right, I don't like it..." instead of actual substance. Now, I could post an army of studies that support my case but I've done this before in this discussion and the usuals ignore it and continue on their "I don't like it...It's not right...it's not natural" talking points. Since I know you are understanding I'll post an article that summarizes the actual reality of hormone therapy. It's not the boogey monster hard right Christians make it out to be, a lot of it is reversible, estrogen and testosterone aren't prescribed until a kid is 16 (not 6 or 8 or any of these other stories people make up) https://www.vox.com/2018/10/22/1800...tion-detransition-puberty-blocking-medication What people need to understand that it is a serious decision just to put a child through hormone treatments, whether it's just hormone blockers or one of the main two, it's something that a doctor is talking to the family and child about.
Trans people, or anyone experiencing gender identity issues, are experiencing a rare disorder. This is true. However, walling people off from transition as a way to cope with their circumstance is a blueprint for suicide. The science shows far more positive outcomes for those who take steps along the transition path. How far they should go is up to them and their medical advisors. "Trans people will never be happy" is some seriously dangerous bullshit to be peddling.
These therapies and surgeries are medical interventions. By your measure, know what else is unnatural? Penicillin. It's not about changing someone's fundamental genetic makeup. It's about aligning someone's mind, soul, and body as best we can. It's about minimizing human suffering. People experiencing gender identity issues deserve compassion, understanding, and the full medical toolkit of society at their disposal. They don't deserve to be spat on and continually reminded that there is something wrong with them, morally, physiologically, or otherwise.
I'll also leave this one here, but like I've said, there is an army of studies that support what Trans people have been saying all along. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm So I'm really tired of being told this isn't 'natural' or it is imagined or whatever. It isn't.
Same thing that happens to them when they transition. Prove it. The fact of the matter is that transitioned trans people are about as unhappy as they were before and even more so. Even the Obama administration refused to cover transitioning services under Medicaid because they found little evidence that it improves their outlook. They definitely care. They need as many people as they can get to agree with them because they know they are wrong. Even you are upset knowing people disagree with your support of their decisions. I would not deny an adult anything. It's their life to ruin if they wish. Not going to support them, though. But the children... No, that is wrong and we have to speak up. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 https://www.cms.gov/medicare-covera...decision-memo.aspx?NCAId=282&bc=ACAAAAAAQAAA& Post some long-term studies that show positive outcomes of transitioned trans people.
I would like to see a long-term study that tracks post-op trans people that shows that their lives improve in any significant way. I would like to see the science. It is far more dangerous to peddle the belief that cutting off your dick and balls is going to make you a woman.
Your first study does not align with your point. It says that the surgery alleviates gender dysphoria, which is the entire point, that means the suicide is not from gender dysphoria since the surgery alleviates that issue. The 2nd link is about what you brought up before with medicaid which has little to do with the science of it all, all it said that it was a case by case basis, which it is. As for your studies about happiness https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6546862/ https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080 These are newer studies focused around happiness around the surgery. You can still be happy about being trans but the bullying by others like how you seem to see these people doesn't help their mental health. No, they really don't, they care because you are trying to use your beliefs to harm them. Telling them they can't transition when they are young drastically and dramatically affects what they are trying to achieve and for it to be taken away by someone's gut beliefs that isn't backed by science is stupid. They aren't wrong. Did you see the video I posted? The study I posted about their brains aligning with their perceived gender? You are denying science here, not me. No, what I'm upset with is that you keep denying the science that these people know they are trans when they are young and so by denying them their transition you are making an already hard life harder. You think it is abuse, yet, these decisions are made by doctors and families, no one is forcing it. Even with SRS, not one of you provided a single case of it being done on a kid. I've been waiting. Where is it? People fear what they don't understand and that's what is going on here.
Tell the researchers that. Surely, then, there would be some study confirming that their brains only changed because of some outside influence...or you are just pulling a theory out of nowhere that the researchers probably already accounted for. More studies... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18980961 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18056697 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18761592 But hey, I'm sure you're gut feeling and beliefs are stronger evidence. I'll be waiting for the studies that show sex and gender are binary.
It’s ****ing disgusting A kid taking hormone therapy is like someone having a vegan cat. We know the looney toon of a parent is really influencing that child I’m all for someone making that decision once they reach their 20’s but most people go through many different phases and I don’t think really settle into themselves until mid 20’s. Nobody should allow a child to chemically castrate themselves because they feel different. You don’t know what kind of outside influence is pushing that kids mindset Absolutely disgusting
Alleviate does not mean eliminate. My point was that they aren't happy pre or post-op. That study states: Point there was that even the Obama administration, which threatened to cut funding of school districts that wouldn't allow students to go to the restroom of their choosing, was unwilling to commit to those types of surgeries due to a lack of support of their benefits. Two things about this study: 1. It was based on surveys that were deemed by the study itself to be moderately to highly biased. 2. Drop-out rates from 12 to 77% are concerning. Also, it is not a long-term study. One study I posted was also Swedish, but included suicide. This one mentions hospitilizations after attempted suicides. This is one of the problems with studies like these. If someone drops out of the study, we don't know if they left or are incapable of continuing for some reason most likely unfortunate. If they honestly felt they were in the right about their decision, then no amount of bullying could cause them to waver. Nothing I can do can harm them more than they were harmed or are already harming themselves. Adults can do what they want. Children are a different story. Yes. Science says some people are born with abnormalities. Okay, I knew that, and? I'm not going to take that and think that most people with gender dysphoria were born with such abnormalities because they weren't. I can do nothing that will make their life any harder than they have made it already by believing that they were born in the wrong body. And again, adults can do what they want to their own bodies. And? Families and doctors could be and do wrong. I haven't claimed there was, but if there are you know you would be in full support of them. Boy says he thinks he's a girl, brain activity is female, genitalia disagrees, boy doesn't want them anymore... What would you do? I have absolutely no fear of them and I understand them. They suffered a trauma that is forcing them to want to leave their identity in favor of one that did not suffer that trauma. If we truly loved them, we would help them get over that trauma. You don't know that they did. But I bet you know that traumatic events can cause changes to our brains. Those are observations that could be used to support different viewpoints if more information was available to us. For example, this information could be used to support earlier surgeries or interventions. Common sense. Just because there are people born with rare sexual abnormalities doesn't mean that we should take those abnormalities seriously and add sexes. We should still take only two sexes seriously as the vast majority of people are one of those two sexes. As far as genders, the people with gender dysphoria are not well. I would bet that most it not all have some sort of pre-existing psychological disorder caused by trauma or traumas that they are choosing to deal with through identifying as someone else.
The Obama administration doing anything is not scientific proof of anything. They could have done it because they knew on trans issues the religious right uses it as political football, firing up their base. They always do this on trans issues, the talking point for it would have been "They are using your tax dollars to give trans people surgeries!" What the Obama administration does or does not do does not ignore the actual science behind it. I'm not quoting all of your posts because it is broken up a lot but I've read it. For this point about happiness and suicide, the point of your study is that it alleviates the problem, that's all the surgery is there for. The fact that the surgery doesn't cure depression should be a surprise as that is something else entirely. The study you linked never states that the surgery doesn't work, in fact, it states clearly that it does when it says it alleviates the issue. For you to say eliminate as if that's a difference is not how things work. It's not like Chemo doesn't work because it doesn't always eliminate cancer, it slows it down, can alleviate it, so we use it. It's not just bullying, it is having rights taken away, being forced to use restrooms where they are physically assaulted for who they are, for example, and even targeted for violence. This would cause anyone to waver. Just like interracial marriage arguments that it wasn't "Natural" and hope IR couples would get openly bullied, assaulted, also affected those people too. Is it really that hard to just shut up if you don't have anything nice to say at all? Who is talking about most people? Why are you doubting the small % that says they are? Man this is just like the gay argument that people choose to be gay and maybe they can be fixed... and just like the gay argument you are on the wrong side of history and will be backpedaling a decade from now. Sure, they could be, but they know a lot more about it than you. I would do what is normally done. Talk to the kid, talk to his family, discuss a social gender change and see how he's feeling 6 months to a year from now, if it is still the same, put him on blockers (THAT ARE REVERSIBLE) and wait till the usual 16-18 years of age to give him estrogen. This is standard procedure. Your fantasy of kids willy nilly transitioning just isn't a usual thing, or really not a thing at all, no one can even bring cases of it happening. This. Is. Wrong. It further shows that you don't have an understanding of it at all. It's not a trauma, the science that I've been showing you this entire time tells you that their brains work differently, that it could be a DSD, that they have always felt this way. WHILE a trauma could be wanting them to make this change, that isn't what transgenderism is, that's just abuse making the child want to be someone else. No, all of these are studies that contribute to the point that they are not wired that same as people that are not transgender.
Common sense is not science. Common sense told people that the Earth was flat and the sun revolved around it and other nonsense. I have asked again and again for the science that sex and gender are binary, not your common sense, but the science behind it. If sex and gender ARE NOT binary then one can conclude that what trans people experience is real. The only people that are not well are those that deny science for their personal beliefs and then want to create law based on their beliefs that contradict science. Common sense and gut beliefs are always behind discriminatory laws. Always. Whether it was racial laws of the past, early LGBT laws, or laws that restrict the right of women, your arguments are very similar to those and none of them are backed up by actual science, just what you 'feel' is right and what makes you uncomfortable. You would bet...based on what qualifications do you have? So once again. Where is the science that supports the idea that sex and gender are binary? It's time for some people to just admit it doesn't exist and that what trans people experience is real.
If the looney toon of a parent is influencing the child then why are the rest of Wade's kids not trans? I see you are another one that's going to deny studies and science because these people existence makes you feel uncomfortable.
Another thing, because this is said a lot. Why is it that psychology and medical experts all over the world disagree that all one has to do is give them a little love and that will fix them? Why are your methods contradictory to the entire professional world and years and years of study and experimentation? Have you ever just thought that maybe...just maybe, the people that have dedicated their lives to this issue, their education, are right or closer to right than you are and that you just might be wrong and that's okay? The whole "We don't know everything about it..." is not an excuse to go the complete opposite way. We don't know everything about cancer either it doesn't mean we disregard everything we've learned about it to take some adequated outdated position on it.
Heh, I've been the one asking for sources that Sex and Gender are binary. People keep claiming this with such confidence I'm surprised I've yet to see the evidence of this, I did post a study about happiness above. Here is another. https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)30533-6/fulltext It is important to note that things like depression are issues separated from gender dysphoria.
