I just watched an interview with a key member of the Northern Alliance on CNN. He mentioned that the same people(or organization) in Pakistan that was helping the Taliban and Bin Laden's terrorist network spread and providing them fuel, military supplies, funding, etc. is now supposedly going to take a 180 degree turn, reverse course, and cut off the Taliban/terrorists while helping the US with intelligence, etc. . Was he referring to the government of Pakistan....or just some organization within Pakistan? This NA person also said he has no direct evidence that the Taliban/terrorists have been cut off as of yet. While the Pakistan government may be siding with the US and we are going to lift sanctions, I am skeptical about Pakistan as a whole. The majority of Pakistan is on the side of the Taliban. How can we seriously address this problem if Pakistan is full of Taliban supporters. At some point, you have to flush them out as well. I don't believe Pakistan is in full cooperation with the US. I believe they are holding a double-edged sword. I was watching on CNN last night an ex-Afghan woman who went into Afghanistan to get the real story behind the suppression of women and their rights while getting the real story of the Taliban. I am very disturbed about what I saw. The Taliban themselves are practicing terrorism on their own people. I don't see any distinction between them and Bin Laden....they appear to be brandishing the same extreme and violent version of Islam. The Taliban has killed many of their own citizens in the form of mass murders. They take whatever is not theirs at will. They kill anyone who breaks the law...typically for things that we would consider trivial and probably just be fined for. For instance, if they catch women in make-up...that is either jail time or a public execution in what is supposed to be an internationally built stadium for football. They even had some stupid Taliban member saying if the international community would build them a place to execute people and funded football...then they would use their stadium for football. How absurd is that? These people are hard-liners that don't care about their own citizens. They never rebuild anything and, contrary to what they say, there are no jobs unless you become a militant. Ordinary childrens' parents have been murdered for no reason. They polled 10 children to ask whose parents have been murdered by the Taliban....7 children raised their hands. They scrape for food with no money. They cry often about their situation. They have no hope. The women are so suppressed they don't even show their faces in public. In my mind, we are their hope. Afghanistan needs a complete overhaul. At least we know we are going in there. Once we take care of business, we must not abandon these people. We must continue to provide aid, efforts, and do what is necessary to establish a government that is just and one that the world can recognize as legit. What about Pakistan, though? Are all of their militants going to go over to Afghanistan for this war? How will they get across the border? Pakistan apparently has direct ties to this terrorist network. Pakistan is not allowing us to do much other than use their airspace. While some of their citizens may be sympathetic to our plight, based on what I am seeing...they have a lot of extremists of their own....who could even possibly revolt and overthrow their own govt.. Sooner or later...we will have to not turn a blind eye and do something about these people as well. There are sure to be terrorists among those hard-liners. It doesn't mean all Pakistani people are involved....just some. Surf
Surf, The Taliban is hated pretty much throughout the Arab world. One analyst said that the US and others would be doing much of the middle east a favor by ridding it of the Taliban. It is one thing for people in Pakistan to support Osama bin Laden and another to equate them with terroists. They are far from that. They sympathize with the situation because they have many of the same belief systems. As for the majority of Pakistan supporting bin Laden and the Taliban, that isn't necessarily true. Do a majority of them understand and relate to the Taliban? Maybe. Are they willing to blow up their own country to protect him? That's another story.
I've commented to a number or people that under any reasonable interpretation of the "Bush Doctrine" that we will go after any supporters of terrorism that we should go after Pakistan, since there is clear proof of their support. Instead they're our big new allies. Logic and sound bites and politics don't mix well at times.
Glynch, I think we will give every government a chance to dismantle the camps within its borders before we go do it ourselves. It is basically a time for the civilized world to stand up and say, either with us, or against us. DaDakota
DaDakota, glynch brings up an interesting point. We might be training people, yet again that are going to fight us with that knowledge in a few years. What a tangled web... if we do it alone, we're ****ed. If we do it w/ a worldwide but non-Muslim force, it's some sort of "infidel" thing. We have to have Muslims, preferably Arab Muslims on the strike force. All this, and yet OBL simply has to point towards our war against Muslims for Oil or sanctions against Iraqi people to garner support in the Muslim world. Worse things could happen than having the Taliban wiped off of the face of the earth, but who should do it is the big question, imo. The bigger question is... what will the aftermath of this look like in ten years, when we're addressing this again (that's why I'm also in the "have a nice day Israel... maybe the UAE can buy you guys some land in Canada" camp).
The majority of Pakistan is NOT on Talibans side. I have family in Pakistan and I do hear from them occasionally. Musharaf had a nationally televised speech a few days ago where he asked the people to trust him. He told them that the US was not bent on viping out Islam, but just the terrorist who committed the violent acts in NY and Washington. Around the same time the Taliban supporters in Pakistan tried to start mass demonstrations all over Pakistan. They urged all people to shut their businesses and come into the streets for demonstration. Well that was not a success by any mean. My uncle told me that more than a majority of people did not show up in these demonstrations. They decided to stay home on that day instead. Just because CNN shows demonstrations of alot of people it does not mean that it is the majority of people. Pakistan has a population of around 150,000,000. I am guessing more then 75% is on the US side, so that is way more then "majority of Pakistan". As for some other concerns about Pakistan, about them harbouring their own terrorist network, well you are completely right about that. They have been sponsoring terrorist activity in Indian held Kashmir for over a decade now. So them now having a stance against terrorism might seem hypocritical. I am a Indian and I sure as hell think it is just that. After US has taken care of OBL and the Taliban they are going to have to turn to Pakistan and ask em whats up? I think Dakota is right. We will give them a chance to dismantle their terrorist network. I think Musharraf will actually do it to. I am guessing the regular people in Pakistan could care less about Kashmir. It is just some political fanatics who keep feeding the uneducated something to their own benefit.
Yeah....I shouldn't have said majority. I should have said majority of those seen protesting and burning GWB dolls on the streets. I certainly didn't mean all the people. In fact, since I'm not there, I don't have the numbers. It's the media that gives the impression that it is the majority because that is all we see. That is cleary f#@k-ed up. They showed a bunch of Taliban supporters chasing that female group RANWA(or whatever) through the streets of Pakistan throwing stones at them and basically wanting to kill them all. That was pretty scary if your one of those women. How anyone can be so hell bent on surpressing women to such a low level is nuts. I treat my dogs much better than they treat women. Surf
The media for some reason never emphasizes on the good side of Islam. They show mass celebrations in Palestine, but barely ever show how alot of Palestinians condemned the terrorist act. Pakistan is really trying to help out the US despite its own country tittering on the brink of civil war. But all the media always seems to emphasize on the few people (relatively speaking) that are burning GWB dolls. Many Middle Eastern countries are condemning the act and have offered to help the US, but does the media ever emphasize on that? NO. Maybe they should take the intiative to show the good side of Islam to decrease the number of hate crimes being committed in US. Anyways I want to know who the hell owns the major networks and CNN?
Honest question: Are the middle east countries who are offering assistance to the US doing so because they wish to help dismantle the Taliban, or because they don't want to have their asses kicked either?
ROckets03, Have you seen this web site? <A HREF="http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/23/">Welcome to DAWN, Pakistan's most widely circulated English language newspaper.</A> Mango
Neither, probably. It's unrealistic that the US would have the capability to "kick the ass" of every nation in the are a that didn't comply with the "war on terrorism." However, many Muslim states want international assistance and continued stability to facilitate profitiable markets. They have no reason to want any disruption to trade. Interestingly enough, Saudi Arabia declined us use of their air bases for an assault against Afghanistan.
Most of the countries (Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc.) would really like to see the Taliban dismantled. They know that Taliban is giving Islam a bad name throughout the world and also they are not really fond of Talibans disregard for human rights. There are probably a few countries (Iraq and a few others?) that would not want Taliban to lose control for a variety of reasons. Also dont think that all the countries in the Middle East are afraid of having "their asses kicked". They have no reason to fear US if they do not harbour any terrorists. Also US is not ignorant enough to go around kickin some countries ass for unspecified reasons.
I have heard of Dawn, but never visited their website. Is there a particular article you are trying to point out to me?
ROckets03, Nothing in particular........just providing you with another source of info for a topic that you have a strong interest in. Mango
Thanks. But I highly doubt a Pakistani newspaper is going to print an article regarding their own terrorist activities in Kashmir at a time like this. I am really really interested in what Pakistani officials will say regarding this matter though. The government does not even publicaly acknowledge to their terrorism in Kashmir. According to them they only offer moral support to the terrorists in Indian held Kashmir. They do not offer finances or military support. I really really wish that at some point in my life India and Pakistan become good friends. Pakistani officials just need to realize that India is not going to give up Kashmir. I am a Muslim from India and I am completely on the Indian side in regards to this issue. Like I have stated, the ordinary people in Pakistan could care less if Kashmir was a part of Pakistan. I have nothing against any Pakistanis so no one take this in the wrong way. Think about it this way, when Texas wanted to secede from US did the US just agree to it? There is no way a country is willingly going to give up a part of its own for any reason. So what if Kashmir is predominantly Muslim in a country that is predominantly Hindu. There are probably more Muslims in India then in Pakistan. If India gives up Kashmir, then the Siks will rise up to demand Punjab as a separte country. Then next thing you know Sri Lanka is demanding some parts in South Indian and China is taking over Ladak. Anyways that is enough of me ranting
A couple of quick facts (from cia.gov) Afghanistan: Population:26.8 Million Land: 650,000 sq/km Males Fit for Military Service: 3,561,957 Pakistan: Population: 144.6 Million Land 804,000 sq/km Males Fit for Military Service: 21,897,000 Also, note that almost all of the infrastructure and population centers of Afghanistan rest on their borders with Pakistan, as does most of the mineral wealth. Further, Pakistan has historicaly been one of the places of refinement of Afghan opium, until the flow of afghan opium stopped reciently. Also, reciently Pakistan tapped out their primary Uranium mine, and had to open another, but it turns out that the new mine is well behind in quality and quantity of the original. Though there are no hard figures on the amount of Uranium, there have been many rummors of Russian uranium mining in Afghanistan), and the mountian range through Kabul extends to the north through Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, the 5th and 7th largest producers of Uranium in the world last year (both larger than the US!). Pakistan needs more uranium to keep up with it's arms race with India. I therefore wonder if Pakistan might see the many things they could gain by a bit of westward expansion, and whether or not this might not have quite a bit to do with the government's 'compliance'.
They cant possibly be dumb enough to think that India, Russia and the Middle East would not intervene in some sort of way to stop their westward conquest.
Did Sheikh Abdullah want Kashmir to stay with India so he could carve out his own power base and not be subservient to Jinnah? Mango
Damn I am not particular fond of Jinnah. Not that my knowledge in this field is beyond doubt or anything, but I think Jinnah was the major character who first demanded partition. The British obviously fooled him into thinking that India was never going to be kind to its Muslims. Well anyways, does anyone know the question to Mangos answer cause I sure as hell dont. And as for Kashmir, I think around 30% is under Pakistani control right?
ROckets03, Here is a pretty good background on India, Pakistan and Kashmir: <A HREF="http://www.nationalstrategy.com/nsr/v9n3Spring00/india%20on%20Kashmir%20spring%20'00.htm">India’s Perspective on Kashmir: The Theory and Practice of India and Pakistan</A> Seems that the people living in Kashmir are not that crazy about actually becoming part of Pakistan. Mango
