1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

The mid-range jumper: Important for shot creators, not so important for spot up shooters

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by meh, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,390
    Likes Received:
    2,262
    True. And the more versatile the player, the more he gets paid.

    But I'm looking at things from a team perspective. From a team perspective, when you have limited resources to pay and develop players, you have to choose.

    Because from your argument, you can make the case about ANY skill. It's more of an advantage for a player to improve his defense, his handles, his shooting, his strength to finish inside, etc. etc. etc. But we all know this this is impossible. So if it's between teaching a young guy to shoot from 23 feet or 18 feet, the Rockets apparently want them to practice shooting from 23 feet.
     
  2. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,390
    Likes Received:
    2,262
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2013/lineups/

    #1 is Patterson with the rest of the starting lineup. -0.4 points per 100 possessions.
    #4 is Delfino in the same role. +5.1 points per 100 possessions.
     
  3. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,390
    Likes Received:
    2,262
    But the thing is, you have to pay to get what you want. So you say you want a team where everyone can shoot the mid-range shot at an acceptable rate. What are you willing to give up?

    The debate isn't so much whether it's better for a player to be able to shoot the mid-range jumper in addition to whatever other skillset he has. No one disagrees with that. It's like saying would a player be better if I had $1000 in addition to whatever current savings I have.

    But players have limited time to work on their game. Teams have limited money to pay for players. And when you're picking and choosing between players, mid-range shot apparently ranks below many other things in what the Rockets look for in a role player.
     
  4. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
  5. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    11,685
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    People are mistaking the philosophy of "You let star players do what they do best" (even if that's mid range 2's) with you need mid range 2's. The idea that Harden could get an open 2 rather than a contested 3 is ludicrous, the closer he gets to the ring, the more the defense becomes concerned that he's going to turn that into 3 feet from the rim, and there's basically one guy in the league who can truly threaten Harden without it being weakside, and Harden is likely to never play against him again.
     
    #45 Aleron, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  6. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    A perfect summation of the facts. Who would want to make the roster sacrifices to pay LMA $16 million a year when his PPS is much less than the Rockets team PPS on 3 pointers. For $6 million sure. But that is his true value versus his $16 million perceived value.
     
  7. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    24,554
    Likes Received:
    14,794
    This is the problem though, you CAN'T practice taking mid-range shots. Apart from mid-range being the worst shot in b-ball, this is one of the reasons why I don't think any NBA team should take it. I mean, take a look at Melo, all he really does is take mid-range shots his entire career. Has become a dead-eye shooter after 10 years or so of doing that? :rolleyes:

    Anyway I'm kinda' surprised a vet from CF is actually the one who created this thread, I thought everyone knew by now that midrange is the worst shot in bball and should not be taken except as a total last resort.
     
  8. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,498
    Likes Received:
    591
    My thoughts exactly. If the point is to be the best player you can be,then having less holes in ur game makes you a lot better. Look at sam cassell as an example. That guy had a stretch of seasons where he should've been an all star. His mid range game was lethal. In houston, he was more of a spot of shooter. He could've stayed in that role for his career,but he want to be great. When I look at a guy like parsons,the mid range shot is the only thing keping him from being a consistent all star. With Howard being in the lane on the blocks, the 16ft er off the dribble is a money shot.
     
  9. leebigez

    leebigez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2001
    Messages:
    15,498
    Likes Received:
    591
    When you say u can't practice a mid range shot, I'm assuming you're playing,right?
     
  10. Canadiandude

    Canadiandude Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,844
    Likes Received:
    164
    The an efficient mid-range jumper can be critical.

    If Asik had a mid-range shot, there wouldn't be any argument about whether the twin tower experiment would work. We're talking about the entire balance of a offense hinging on ONE shot.

    Ask Michael Jordan how important it was to have an outlet pass to John Paxon who was deadly from the mid-range.
     
  11. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    11,685
    Likes Received:
    1,113
    It's different for a PF, spacing is different when you're looking at players who move from the rim outwards, rather than from the perimeter inwards.

    As for Chicago, they were better when he was replaced with Steve Kerr and his 3 pointers....
     
  12. Air Langhi

    Air Langhi Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2000
    Messages:
    21,626
    Likes Received:
    6,259
    A mid range jump shot is crucial. Did anyone watch the finals? The spurs dared LBJ to hit that jumper and he kept missing and then when he started hitting it the heat won.
     
  13. roslolian

    roslolian Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2008
    Messages:
    24,554
    Likes Received:
    14,794
    I always see this reasoning when it comes to "old school" posters here. Let me ask you something, do you need to be a master chef to know if a dish tastes good or bad? Do you have to be an F1 driver to know if a car is good or not?

    If practicing mid-range shots work then you'll see so many people good at them, and yet players make very little of these mid-range shots. This is especially true when we're talking about the area between the 3 pt line and 16 ft away. Kobe and Melo are regarded as the "best" mid-range guys on the planet, and yet even them don't have a mid-range FG% greater than 0.45%.

    Kobe's splits:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/shooting/2013/
    Melo's splits:
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01/shooting/2013/

    Now are you gonna be a badass and tell me you can do better than actual NBA players?
     
  14. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,637
    Likes Received:
    392
  15. jtr

    jtr Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2011
    Messages:
    7,470
    Likes Received:
    275
    Were they showcasing him for a trade to dump him?
     
  16. Canadiandude

    Canadiandude Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,844
    Likes Received:
    164
    "The mid-range jumper...not so important for spot up shooters" -the OP's claim

    Steve Kerr shot the 3 at an all-time GREAT level. Having him on any team would make that team better.
    The Bulls being better with Kerr is in no way a refutation of the importance of a mid-range spot up shooter (Paxon).
     
  17. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,637
    Likes Received:
    392
    I highly doubt it. I think T-rob deal was just one of those unplanned deals like Harden's deal.
     
  18. langal

    langal Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,824
    Likes Received:
    91
    Maybe the mid-range shot is considered inefficient because modern players are not as good at them.

    I can understand some sort of basic argument that a 3 pointer is better than a long 2 - but the entire argument against mid range shots would only seem to reinforce the theory (ie. only one guy is allowed to practice them).

    Defenses will adjust rather easily if you never take mid-range shots. It's sort of like saying you should never rush the ball because you will always get more yards per play passing. While I accept that being passing-oriented is better, you still need a running game.
     
  19. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,390
    Likes Received:
    2,262
    Patterson was on the court for 35% of crunch time, as defined by 82games of <5 minutes in 4th and <5pt differential. Delfino played in 58% of possible times. If the coaches really thought that highly of Patterson, why was he on the bench so much instead of a sub?

    Not sure why you care about who starts. The Rockets didn't start Delfino over DMo or Jones or Greg Smith. Spurs throughout history had "starting centers" not named Duncan. But these players rarely see the court when the game is on the line because coaches put in their best players in crunch time.
     
  20. meh

    meh Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2002
    Messages:
    15,390
    Likes Received:
    2,262
    Not really. If you go with the football analogy, jumpshots(spreading the floor) is like running and inside game is passing. Because getting a good shot inside is preferable to all other plays in the NBA.

    So the question is, do you go with a running back that is big and can generally get you consistent 2~5yds/rush. Or do you go with a smaller, quicker back that may lose a few yards, but can break for big plays and end up averaging more ypc despite more variance in yards each carry. NFL people seem to prefer the latter over the 3 yards and a cloud of dust philosophy.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now