Terror attack on London Bridge June 3 2017

I wish Trump would learn that shitty leaders are alarmists who instill fear into their constituents. You don't fight terrorism by making all your damn constituents afraid to walk into any damn public space.

 

It's safe to say that Islam has a problem with terrorism. Of course, that is very different than saying all Muslims are terrorists.

 

Is there any positive values in nazism and xenophobia? Can you seriously said the same of Islam?

What is the solution? A war on Islam? That is what exactly these terrorists want. A holy war. And frankly that's exactly what some have fallen into - a holy war must be the solution. How dangerous and realistic is that to solve anything? I'm pretty sure you don't want that, but when all you do is 'islam' as a whole, blah blah blah, you play into that hand.

I don't know the solution, but I know a holy war is exactly not it. Even if you truly believe the main root cause is within Islam, a part of it, and nothing else, the solution is not to go after Islam as a whole, but to go after that portion. You want a transformation, progression of the religion. However difficult that is, it has happen in history with other religion and is much more practical than a war of religion. Maybe demand policies and set strategy for transforming the religion. Maybe any dealing with countries such as Saudi Arabia include requirement for public education not tied to religion, or at min, not educating their young to hate others. Maybe you even clamp down on free speech (i have no idea about free speech in EU) and do not allow extremist lecturing of any sort. Collaborate with modern scholar of Islam to come up with what approaches can work...

 

That is completely ridiculous logic. Neo-Nazism, at its core, is about white power. White people do not get offended because you speak out against Neo-Nazism. They are at the forefront of denouncing it.

Christianity has been around for longer. Atrocities have been done in the name of religion and Christ. Generally speaking, Christians do not get offended when speaking about such times and they too denounce it.

We should not be worried about offending Muslims when talking about radical Muslims nor should they be offended. They should be at the forefront of denouncing it instead of defending their religion of peace and tolerance. I do not understand why you believe we should ignore the issue at hand.

For the life of me, I do not understand why leftists like yourself continue to defend Islam so vehemently. If at best Islam is a religion of peace, mainstream Muslims are very intolerant of your liberal beliefs. This is why we continue to have these attacks. These 'peaceful' not violent Muslims are very indifferent about the people who are getting killed.

 

It's as if you didn't even read my first paragraph. Almost everyone who is a Neo-Nazi today, chose to be one while politically conscious. Most Muslims were born into their religion. Also, Islam has far more grey than Neo-nazism thanks to it being a 1300 year old ideology where there are hundreds of interpretations.

Comparing the two is stupid. It's easy for a white person who wasn't born into a 'neo nazi' religion to lambaste neo-nazism. It's easy to lambaste nazism because everyone apart of it is a piece of ****.

We have millions of Muslims who are just Muslim out of pure circumstance of birth. We have millions of Muslims who look at you in perplexing way when people tell them their religion is violent and hateful because they honestly believe that their natural empathy coincides with the doctrine of Islam. You aren't accomplishing jack **** by having leaders lambaste Islam. In fact, you are doing exactly what ISIS and other Islamic terror groups want from the kaffir.

People like you solve problems from emotion rather than pragmatism.

 

This reaction to a terrorist attack is the precise goal of organizations like ISIS with the end goal of trying to establish a caliphate. Distrust of democractic government by the people to create more nationalism is priority #1. That's already accomplished.

Destabilized Western alliances is priority #2. Some would say that's already happening too. That's why when Trump says Russia could help in the fight against ISIS we should all roll our eyes. Russia and ISIS actually have more mutual interests than you'd think.

All of this allows for enough discourse to get elected officials who are nationalist and essentially say Muslims are all bad we need to wall them off. This starts the process of butting out of Middle East politics and democratic government building.

Then Countries like the US get out of the politics of the Middle East and say things like "we are not here to lecture you" (we just want to buy your oil) to the oligarches of Saudi Arabia & United Emerites. Etc. that hold the financial power through oil. That unilateral support to both be a transactional partner and destabilization of the Middle East leadership allows for a vacuum to establish that caliphate.

What we are doing now as a military response is still good. Take away their land and their funding. (However the uptick in civilian casualties is concerning) This continuation of essentially George W's war in Afghanistan and Obamas in northern Iraq is a must. But now without a state department (thanks to Tillerson) involved and the opposition to setting up Democracy we are just creating a big leadership vacuum when the US inevitably leaves. It's sort of like running a play in basketball but no basket to shoot the ball into. If we don't have an avenue to establish a democratic government when we leave, what are we really doing over there?

So yeah this response I agree to a certain extent is depressing because it's exactly what they are trying to accomplish. "Get the Muslims out of here". They want you first to hate and fear Muslims and push for nationalism to avoid Middle East politics. You've already got your nationalist leader. We just need the rest of the government to go along with him. Folks like the ones we have hear voice themselves loud enough to overcome those who still believe in global liberal democracy and they will eventually cower if they think it will keep them elected.

So guys... when you react to a terrorist act like this ask yourself what exactly they are trying to accomplish and then ask yourself how you can help to not give them the satisfaction of succeeding their ultimate goal.

 

Exactly true.

Nobody asked for a "holy war". What I am saying is that pretending the elephant in the room isn't there is wrong. Islam is at the root of these terror attacks. Pretending they have nothing to do with Islam is transparently disingenuous.

So what. White people are born into their skin color. That doesn't mean that you cannot denounce "white power" assholes. On top of that, just because you are born into something doesn't necessarily mean you cannot be enlightened later. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamed_Abdel-Samad

So what. Who cares if it's 1300 years. It was a bad idea when it started, and it is still the motherlode of bad ideas. It was started by a pedophile murderer. That's the truth. Who gives a flying **** if it was 1300 years, if it's 1.5 billion people. It's still the motherlode of bad ideas, and that is evidenced not only by what its most violent fringe freaks do, but by a lot more in daily life.

No, but I can say it about a Salafist in a Western country. I can say it about a Wahhabi running around in Berlin. It's the same as seeing someone walking around in Neo-Nazi boots with a Swastika tattoo. I am not equating all Muslims to Neo-Nazis. I am equating political Islam to Nazism. The parallels are obvious. And the more so-called "moderate" Muslims are enlightened and realize that political Islam = Nazism, the better.

It is possible - again, see Hamed Abdel Samad's life story.

Your argument of "it's not their fault because they were born into it", combined with the fact that leaving Islam is seen as a sin that might even be punished with death (and many, if not most Muslims in many countries agree with that), do you see what that leads to? This cycle must be broken. It's like "being born into the Mafia...it's not his choice or fault...and he can't leave because they would kill him". And then we should not even be allowed to call a spade a spade and talk about it? Seriously, wtf.

 

LOL!!!! Keep showing your ignorance. Nothing I posted was incorrect at the time, and I've shown the reasons why all of those were reasonable. The funny thing was that in one post recently you bragged about not reading information involved and this might be why you keep highlighting your own ignorance. By all means, keep going. Hahahaha.

 

uh, no sir. Your posts were completely ridiculous and like a person who deliberately ignores the truth in front of them.

 

The Islamic terrorists want a holy war. And there are folks that is falling right into it, or even wanting it on this side. You don't see that as a risk, but that is exactly the goal here and you are falling for it.

First, I don't know of anyone pretending that Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. Where folks differ is that it's not Islam as a whole. Second, do you really care about what is wrong or right over what work and what doesn't? Again, there you go with Islam as a whole and with that altitude, you will never have a solution. You might feel better because it's wrong to you, but you aren't solving anything.

 

You've joined the ignorance train. Which post was completely ridiculous to you? But be prepared because whichever one you say, you will be directed to factual information which will further highlight your ignorance.

 

Stop insulting our intelligence.

This is a ridiculous notion. Comparing white people being born into being white relative Muslims being born into a specific religion is stupid and not at all comparable. You know this. Why even bother posting such an asinine notion that you know that can easily be called out.

You seem to be addicted to normative 'ought' statements and cannot fathom the mindset of someone being born into a religious Muslim household and how difficult it is to just leave.

Leaders lambasting Islam will just isolate Muslims in the West.

I would like tangibly drawn step by step hypothetical scenarios of what it might look like in a world where heads of states and mayors lambaste Islam. I want to see where you are coming from. What do you think is going to start happening when our leader start reading quotes from the Quran to show hoe violent it is. Please do this so I can understand your crazy un-pragmatic rationality. You've never once explained what you want to accomplish with leaders criticizing Islam in your decade long internet message board crusade. The only thing it would seem to accomplish for you is reaffirming your smugness.

 

You think just because Islam has 1300 years of 'gray' makes it more acceptable? It wasn't acceptable for the Christian atrocities hundreds of years ago nor is it now. The same applies to Islam. There is no excuse.

I accept most Muslims are peaceful. I have no problem with peaceful Muslims. Speaking ill about ones religion should not have any effect on them carrying out violent attacks if they are indeed peaceful.

Both religions have an issue of intolerance (the world world for that matter). However only one of these religions has a serious issue with crimes towards humanity. Ignoring the common denominator is not going to resolve the problem.

Why is it the leftist have a strong disdain for intolerant Christians but they give a free pass, even defend intolerant Islam?

 

Why is Space Ghost still pretending that Muslims don't speak out against terrorism? Maybe he ought to do more listening. Because they are speaking out time and time again. It doesn't get the media coverage, but that doesn't mean they aren't speaking out against it. In fact they are doing more than just speaking out against it, they are actually physically combatting these terrorist groups and in many cases they are sacrificing their lives to combat Islamic terrorist groups.

While the Muslims are doing that, what are you doing about it, Space Ghost?

 

For starters, the one where you suspected the Greeks and Armenians of being behind the terror incident. I'm sure your next post will be to highlight some Greek terror conducted in the days of Hadrian (circa 100 AD) to "prove your point."

 

So...





Show me where leftists are asking for world leaders to read draconian verses of the Bible to show who evil the Old testament is.

Criticize Islam. I do it all the time but this notion that world leaders need to start being theologians and shun Islam as a bad religion is stupid, not pragmatic and will just play into the hands of actual Islamic terrorists.

You want the same thing Islamic terrorists want. Congrats.

Leadership used to be about keeping your flock/heard calm and collective rather than instilling fear and hate. Then something happened and now we live in a world were people think Donald Trump is a strong leader.

 

Number one - there was not a post where I said that I suspected Greek or Armenians were behind the terror attack against Turkey. I said it was a possibility and where Turkey is concerned, that's true. You can go back and look at the post I showed ATW when he felt that was the case. It highlights deaths, different violent groups that have threatened and attacked Turkey. If you don't want to search that post, you can look up Turkish politicians assassinated by Armenian groups, Armed stand-offs between Greek groups and Turkish authorities.

The funniest thing is that I was following your example in that post. I was merely waiting for more facts. LOL. Let me know when your homework is complete and what you've found out from doing the research.

 

Exactly. Let just stop for a second (even leave out right and wrong for the sake of productive dialogue) and realize the proposed solutions folks here are gearing up towards but not outright saying.

They want a holy war, and we seem apt to giving them what they want. If folks like Texx really want to engage in that how exactly is that a solution that benefits us as a country and how is that accomplished? Ethnic cleansing? Is that productive?

The PC hat is off. Everyone recognizes that ISIS etc are Islamic. It's dumb and a waste of energy to point the finger at the left as the problem because apparently the left not accepting that ISIS is a form of Islam is going to solve all of our problems.

It won't and it hasn't. What are the real answers that the right has that are productive as a country? They don't actually have any that I can see other than giving them exactly what they want.

 

You have to understand their psychology... their intent.

Their intent isn't to solve problems. Their intent is to reaffirm their high horse position on a constant daily basis.

It's evident in the fact that none of the conservative posters here actually walk around in fear of terrorism because they already understand the minuscule chances of it ever effecting them.

 

Ridiculous response. In today's age, the obvious guess is Islamic terrorism, not the Greeks.