So, Russians Committed Espionage to give the Presidency to Its Stooge, and We're Just Gonna Take It?

I can see why Trump's a wannabe funky. He's really not all that hip.

You got at least 4 years of meltdowns. You might want to pace yourself

 

Ok, where to begin?

1. The NSA. The same NSA that tried not so long ago to convince everyone that Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden were foreign agents and the worst danger to the Republic since Julius and Ethel Rosenberg? The same NSA that selflessly never overstepped their bounds when they bugged Angela Merkel's phone or tried to convince everyone to just trust them, and not trust what those dirty traitors published in those leaks, because storing metadata of everyone's phone and browser history is totally about fighting terrorism.

2. Wikileaks. No one cares the Julian Assange is wanted by every government in the world, and it's not hard to think it probably has little to do with whether or not he raped anyone in Sweden. Everyone loved him when he had dirt on people and governments they don't like, but when he had something to share that might force them to re-evaluate their position, nah, they just turned on him.

3. The Kill the Messenger thing. The DNC has been shouting Russia more than Sarah Palin trying to convince the unwashed of diplomatic international bonafides, and no one has yet to produce any evidence for public scrutiny. While that doesn't mean it isn't true, it wa desperate during the election and it's even more desperate now. Yet, no one is alleging that anything unleaked is untrue, including the fix on the Democratic Party's own primary. Shouldn't that trouble you more than who told you?

4. Russia / Putin. I've covered Russia in length before, and I won't make the mistake of derailing a thread by going there now, since that will inevitably happen.

5. Hillary Clinton and her hubris. The "most qualified candidate in history" was just beaten by the least qualified in a fair election. I don't like it, but it's over. Learn your lesson and try not to let it happen again.

6. It happened because the Democratic Party ran a dirty primary and slandered people who supported Bernie Sanders and the occupy movement as unrealistic kids and "Bernie Bros" whatever the **** that ever was supposed to mean.

7. It lost because it continued to sport identity politics and virtue signaling over supporting the now very alienated traditional labor vote and the working class -- and labeled anyone that pointed that out as a lackey of the alt-right and a racist and misogynist, and surprise, they voted for Trump, particularly in the Rust Belt. She didn't even campaign in Wisconsin!

8. It lost because it failed to fully grasp how out of sync the corporatist, post-triangulation Democratic Party is from the people it is supposed to represent, and how it was seen as just as corrupt and beholden to the interests of Wall Street as the GOP. The financial fellatio that came from triangulation finally came back to bite the Democratic Party and if you don't address that, get ready to get your ass kicked in 2018.

9. The protests. People are protesting the results of an election, for no reason other than that they don't like the outcome. And boy are they gonna show Trump! With some serious, and I mean serious virtue signalling and attacks on the white, male, cis-gendered patriarchy that clearly was at fault here. Because, I mean, what it else could it be? It has nothing to do with the fact that they fielded a terribly unlikable and out of touch candidate, a Brahmin DC careerist in an election all about rage against the status quo. It must be Racism and Misogyny and Islamophobia that caused piss poor turnout. If only Lena Dunham had just had more time at the convention, maybe all those unemployed, ex-union, 3rd genertion Democratic Party Rust Belt voters that crossed lines and decided the election would have understood.

10. Foreign election tampering. Which America, as a vanguard of democracy and integrity has and would never do, and certainly never did that in Russia. Or Ukraine. Or other states in the former USSR where they built military bases...

Seriously Sam, the constructivists in the GOP tried harder to prevent a Trump presidency than the Democratic Party did and continue to be more realistic about how to contain the damage now. It's embarrassing and you aren't helping.

Why can't you slow the horses, Sam? Don't you know you are driving off a cliff?

 

Dei, I'm fine with that position. It would be nice to hear you say that Trump was wrong for pushing forward the opposite message for weeks prior to the election. At any rate, I concur with you, protesters who insist that Trump isn't our President are off base.

At the same time, he is our "President" -- we're not electing a King here. If half the country is strongly opposed to a huge chunk of Trump's agenda and inflammatory rhetoric, they shouldn't just lay down and passively accept whatever he wants to do or pretend that the things he says are just fine and dandy. That's not what democracy is about either. So many people seem to think that the only political role for a citizen is to cast a vote every 4 years. Not true. Political activism is a good thing, so long as the safety and property of others is respected.

 

First, I'm not Dei. I changed my handle after using "Deji" since the 90s specifically to distinguish myself from a white nationalist Trump supporter who is not particularly keen on Red Sea Pedestrians.

Second, Trump hasn't done much yet, and isn't yet president -- save your energy for the things to come.

Third, if these protesters should be raging at anyone, it's the Democratic Party leadership, and purging the leadership of it's corrupt elite that allowed this to happen. That's where their activism should be directed. Trump and his ilk didn't win this on merit, the Democratic Party lost it with complacency, hubris, and institutional corruption.

Fourth, yes it is a democracy, and no it isn't divine right, but it's a federated republic. So many I know are seriously worried that gay people will have their marriages revoked, muslims and mexicans will be rounded up, and I'm not sure what irritated me more, that they think wearing a safety pin and blocking traffic will prevent it, or that they don't consider that if Obama couldn't keep simple promises like closing Guantanamo, that maybe the kind of far-reaching, Constitutional butt-wiping that Trump campaigned on might just be a bit difficult to implement?

Edit: Fifth? Trump started the "the fix is in" thing because he expected to lose too, and I'm pretty sure the mouthbreather faithful would be be spray painting more swastikas than they are currently had he lost. Just don't call him Hitler, since no one is Hitler except Hitler, and because he's really more of a modern blend of Warren G. Harding and Silvio Berlusconi. He can be a one term president if the Democratic Party can learn how to Center-Left again, stop sucking up to it's corporate and technocratic wings, and represent the very broad palette of working class voters that comprise a majority and have been alienated.

 

he's totally unhinged

his Russia flailings are comical - he's easily duped by what he reads in his liberal media echo chamber

 

Congress want an investigation. At min, we learn what really happened and how to defend ourselves in the future.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/16/politics/russia-congressional-hearing/index.html

 

They want an investigation because as Senator Corker says in the article, they don't have any conclusive evidence. While I appreciate the Grahm/McCain tandem not letting it go or giving Trump a blank check of political capital, they never saw a war they didn't like. As much as I sympathize with Ukraine, I'm really not eager to move closer to armed conflict with Russia. If I live the rest of my life without having to see another war, that would be great.

 

Is all this money Chinese corporation and other governments given to the Clinton Foundation, are these election tempering? Unlike the hack thing, these donations are confirmed to be true.

 

...you're ruining SamFisher's pity party! shhhh!

 

You must be a p***y yourself because you seem to be using that term a lot lately.

 

Sammy is blaming the Russians lol. Hey dufus, your King Barry said the 80s are calling and they want their foreign policy back. It is so good to see the most arrogant, full of shiet poster who lives in his elitist glass house having a total meltdown. Keep blaming those Ruskies amigo. Thanks Mr Trump!

 

I agree with much of this. The Democratic Party ran one of the most uninspiring, insulated campaigns in recent memory. And honestly, at this point, I think most people dislike Lena Dunham other than Lena Dunham and the CEOs of dildo manufacturers.

But I think you're avoiding a bigger issue here with your third point: "The Kill the Messenger Thing." I, along with many I've talked to, am troubled much more by Russia's meddling in the election of a sovereign nation. That nation happens to be the one I'm currently living in. If true, the ramifications are more immediate and threatening than the inner workings of a party that will control exactly 0 of our 3 branches of government in the next 2, but, most likely, 4 years.

During the election, the Wikileaks revelations should have bothered everybody. The election is over now. Donald Trump will be our president and there are worrying signs that Russia may have manipulated various aspects of communication in order to get him elected. I'm also curious to what effect this issue, in general, might have during the long term.

As you stated, we don't have any concrete evidence that Russia did this. I'm willing to wait, be vigilant and see if anything comes from this. We do have, IMHO, very strong evidence that Hillary Clinton will not be the next president of these United States. So I no longer care about any of that. I do care how the DNC is run and structured throughout the interim but that's more of a long term goal. Meanwhile, I have to live in this country for the foreseeable future.

 

Soooo, I never got an answer here. Which is it?

 

Who is Donald Trump in your analogy? Isn't he sort of a key figure in all of this? Your analogy seems to represent Russia as a concerned netizen seeking justice against Clinton, as opposed to trying to sway the election to their favored candidate (the guy who, up until he won, I thought you considered to be even worse than Clinton).

 

I mean, dumb analogies are dumb but sure, I'll bite. I would:

2. Be more upset that the hacker's friend got the job - since the hacker's friend is an admitted pedophile that we have on tape who grabs them inappropriate places and does so because, "When you're a teacher, they let you do it."

See? Analogies are often very silly. But at least my deconstruction of your analogy has an element of reality involved.

 

Should be obvious but in this analogy, Russia is the hacktivist with the personal grudge using the information about the sex offender teacher (Hillary) to get her fired and replaced by their friend (Trump).

In no way was I suggesting that anyone cared about "justice" and I do consider Trump worse than Hillary.....but the point is that what "the Russians" exposed was all legitimate, so what difference does it make why they exposed it? Does every whistleblower have to have good intentions? What if they are just a disgruntled employee....does that mean it doesn't count?

We had 2 totally garbage candidates for president and one of them had their dirty laundry exposed, does it matter why? If Trump had his tax information exposed, would anyone care why it happened? Of course not.

The blame for all of this is 100% on Hillary for being the terrible person she is, not for those who merely exposed the truth, even if they did it for selfish or nefarious reasons.

 

I agree with you that it doesn't particularly matter that the emails we're exposed to the public. In fact, it was mildly refreshing to see how the DNC operates behind "closed" doors. Kind of like a juice cleanse, I'm assuming. It's a little concerning to me, at the moment, why though.

Lest we forget, 3 pages of Trump's tax returns (1995, was it?) were leaked to the New York Times and showed some initial baggage that the president-elect apparently wasn't keen to elaborate on. I tuned into Charlie Rose when he interviewed the journalists who received a letter from an address at Trump Tower. The journalists we're very vague and frankly, the whole thing seemed like election year politics. I didn't care why really but I questioned the source. Did this anonymous person have a beef with Donald Trump? What relevance does this distraction have to my eventual pick for president? The taxes he paid or didn't pay doesn't exactly affect me, after all, so why would this source do this?

Obviously, to get Hillary Clinton elected and have Donald Trump defeated.

So with that in mind, I wonder about how much significance I should give to the Intelligence community's assertion that Russia had a hand in the email leak. It's easy to point fingers at the NSA for the surveillance fiasco, and rightfully so. They, unlike the anonymous stranger or Julian Assange, are staffed with people who's job it is to protect this country, and its people, by gathering Intelligence. Some people are very concerned about it.

 

Also unsurprising, the Bobbys and the Granvilles and the Bigtexxes and all the others who swore up and down that they would never, ever support Donald Trump are now all out in droves supporting Donald Trump.

Whodathunkit?