Now you're just being NIMBY. A few years ago when the Klan wanted to speak in St. Paul at the MN capital I was one of the people arguing that they should be allowed to speak even though I was a board member of an ethnic minority association. That didn't stop me from participating in the anti-Klan counter rally because thankfully free speech applies to all. If the Klan or Neo Nazis wanted to march down my street I would let them. As long as they stayed off my lawn and limited themselves to nothing more than speech they're as free as the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and political campaign door knockers that show up every now and then to push some agenda.
Honest to god, I wouldn't mind if they marched right down my street here in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, so long as it was non violent (fat chance in Brooklyn!) Again, I think they more exposure they get, the better. It will work against them, not for them. Again, I wouldn't mind a muslim anti-american march through any city, though I think the police should search them for bombs/guns first. Allow the hateful ideology to wither in the light of day. Don't give it power by fearing it. This seems like a fall-back excuse to avoid discussing the merits of other people's arguments. Everybody else is just sheltered so they don't care. You have no idea who we are or what we've been through, or even what race we are. Try addressing the content of our posts. I'll bet there would be more opposition to groups of mid-eastern men marching in parks shouting "death to America!" than to a KKK rally because the majority of Americans are more afraid of them than neo-nazis/white supremacits/etc. But I'll also bet that the opposition won't come from the likes of those supporting free speech for all in this forum, and not from me. The opposition will be from those who are afraid and disgusted, and that's not a position to make policy on.
Yes hate speech is. Nowhere in the constitution does it say that hate speech can't be used. If that hate speech incites an uprising, incites violence, or that kind of thing, then yes it is wrong. But in a society that is supposed to be free all types of speech should be free as long as it doesn't violate the public safety "Fire in a theatre" rule.
"Two Wrongs don't make it Right" - statement used primarily by the person who did the 1st wrong. Rocket River
So ok with them walking down your street telling your wife and kids YOUR DAYS ARE NUMBERS All kinds of slurs and various other vague threats Rocket River
Yes, I'm okay with that. Although my hypothetical wife and kids would have to go out into the street or park to hear them. I would think differently if it were a random group acting on it's own confronting me and my hypothetical family, rather than a group that petitioned for a time/place to demonstrate/march and it was approved.
i'd assume someone of strong religious faith would inherently think they are better at least from a piety point of view than those who dont share the faith. so yes im cool with that. doesn't everyone die? who cares. i'd question the persons understanding of the english language... muslims acknowledge god to be allah. its the same god in muslim eyes. so would i be offended? a bit perhaps. would i let them say it? sure. i dont try to offend you. i just think your ability to debate your point (which inherently is fairly weak) is very weak. and no im not offended. this is all in arguendo. which is fine. and even if it wasn't...i still wouldn't be offended. i have enough conviction in my viewpoints to handle opposing views.
Yes because I could choose to walk down their street yelling "Your days are numbered!" and all kinds of slurs too and I would likely get applauded for standing up to Neo-Nazis even though my speech is essentially the same except its targeted at an unpopular group. People are free to say what they want its the actions that matter and as long as its limited to speech they're free to yell and march but so are the people who opppose them.
This is completely untrue. Threats of violence are against the law. You're twisting this all around to be some kind of liberal soup of free speech where anyone, anywhere can say whatever they want to whomever they want. That is completely not the case.
Are we not discussing the right of a group of people to gather publicly? We're talking about a group of people who have to petition for a permit to gather in a public space and hold up 'offensive' signs and say 'offensive' things. Do you understand the difference between this and another group of people who approach others privately to intimadate/harrass them?
We're discussing the rights of a group that espouses violence against minorities marching in a minority neighborhood. This group has a history of murder and kidnapping.
So should white supremacists not be in that neighborhood, or not be allowed to do their hate speech thing at all?
The sad irony is that a neo-nazi can walk onto the lawn of a african american, stand in their lawn, burn a cross, and have the courts rule that it's ok because there's a political statement that's protected. How would you like it if people starting burning things in your lawn and then claimed free speech - and won! The fact is that these rallies lead to violence - because it's beyond offensive - it's down right oppressive and dehumanizing. People shouldn't have to go through that. Neo-Nazis are NOT PROTESTING PEACEFULLY WITH ANY KIND OF POSITIVE INTENT. They are doing it AS AN ACT OF OPPRESSION. You are protecting one groups so called "rights" and in the process taking away the dignity of another's. If they wanted to assemble peacefully, they can do it in the mountains of Montana. The Civil rights movement didn't protest in white neighborhoods! Also, "fighting words" - words deemed to provoke an immediate reaction in a face-to-face situation, is not protected. That's an important point. To take the words of someone who's a lot more articulate then I am: The First Amendment is an indispensable part of our rights in society, and must not be casually limited. But regulating hate speech does not destroy the First Amendment any more than regulating p*rnography destroys sex. It is important to remove the potent weapon of hate speech from the hands of racists if America is ever to live up to its promise of equality for all its people. Only when racism is purged from the mainstream and the margins of American society will true democracy be created.
Something to be corrected here (otherwise a good post). The U.S. Supreme Court upheld the ban on cross burning in Virginia two and half years ago:
Now you're just being silly. Lawns are private property; no court is going to support that. Stop exaggerating. I disagree. Each of us holds our own dignity. Nobody can take away my dignity by saying things to/at me, nor could I take it away from somebody else with words. As for violent protests, I think whoever is reviewing the petition for a permit to demonstrate should 1) pick an isolated location where a violent conflict is less likely and easy to control/contain if there is one, and 2) provide lots of security. If it's a group that has or develops a history of violence in protests, then they should be warned that their permits will be denied and their marches illegal. I need clarification here- do you want to forbid this type of group marching in a particular neighborhood, or do you want to forbid them marching at all? Most of your objections stem from how/where they marched, but then you quote: Good intentions, but I disagree. Racism will not be purged through gag orders and suppression of ideology- you only fuel them when you do that! What are you going to do to 'purge' racism from society, if that's even possible? Shut down every racist website? Jail every person who says something racist? The intentions to protect the minority of blacks in this case is honorable, but there's no question that what you are proposing is shutting down a minority ideology because the majority doesn't like it. This is wrong, unamerican, and unconstitutional. And, by the way, saying that neo-nazis represent all whites doesn't fly. At all. Neo nazis are a minority, a very small one. I'm repeating myself here, but I might as well because you never respond to the content of anyone else's post. These hateful ideologies should be allowed to be heard and seen in the light of day, to compete in the open market of ideas. There, it will wither. Gagging it and forcing it into the dark corners gives it a place to fester and grow, gives it's practicioners greater cause to act.
