Scottie Quitten: One of the NBA's 50 Greatest or not?

Cousy and Sharman's stats speak for themselves. They formed the greatest backcourt of the 50's-60's, and some believe, possibly, the greatest ever. They would have made the hall of fame and been listed in the top 50 players of all time even without Russell and the championships.

Sam Jones was the ultimate team player (and a very good one, I might add). Never worried about stats, just winning (as did all the Celtic greats)

Havlicek won 2 of his rings after Russell left ('74 and '76)

As for Horry, Ellie, Smith and Cassell, All I can say is- BJ Armstrong Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Steve Kerr. Should they be in the top 50 of all time?

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When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.-
Albert Einstein

 

Bob*,

So, Russell indeed had much, much better teammates that Hakeem...can we in fact say that he had the BEST teammates in the history of the NBA. 4 top 50's and 5 top 90's.

The Celtics rocked not solely because of Russell. The whole Russell legend is, to me, an old (OLD) argument stemming from the Wilt debates. So he is better than Wilt. That doesn't mean he is impervious to any comparison.

Hakeem is better than Russell, if for nothing else, simply because he was 2 inches taller.

 

Keyword here is TEAM

Basketball, in general, has deteriorated into an I, Me, Mine attitude. It's all about who has the biggest contract and who gets on the sportscenter highlights with a flashy dunk.

What made Russell's teammates better? Possibly because they worked as a team? 12 players with one goal in mind, just win baby.

Todays game is about getting calls on cell phones at halftime telling you your not shooting enough or looking at the stat sheet seeing how many assists you have. Individual goals.



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When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.-
Albert Einstein

 

That's certainly a convincing argument...does that mean that Shawn Bradley is better than Hakeem Olajuwon then?




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THE REGULATOR
"I'm not the showstopper, I'm _RUNNING_ the show!"

 

Yes, that is the key.

The Celtic TEAM had the best combined talent ever. You already admited to it and so did the NBA TOP 50 and TOP 90.

Russell was NOT the TEAM, by your described standards of Cousy, Sharman, Jones, Heinsohn and Havlicked. Those guys were legitimate top 50's and Russell was their teammate.

The Russell argument against Wilt is way...way too old, and it is the only argument you are presenting. Hakeem is a superior defender and scorer than Russell at 6'9"....I just don't get it.

I love the Celtics and Russell's legend vs Wilt....but I just don't understand any arguments that are based on a fundamental argument that NO ONE CAN EVER BE BETTER THAN JOE DIMAGGIO!!!


btw...Pedro Martinez is the best pitcher ever, and Barry Bonds is better than Ted Williams.


[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited June 17, 2001).]

 

ummmmm, please explain what Shawn Bradley has to do in a Hakeem v Russell comparison based on Hakeem being 2" taller than Russell???

....next!

 

Connie Hawkins was robbed

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President of the Sir Charles Barkley Fan Club

 

would Calvin Murphy be a better selection than snottie pissin'


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In Tina, Janeth, Amaya and Amanda, i still believe!

Mr. 4play has spoken.

 

You said that Hakeem was better than Russell if for nothing else, simply because he was 2" taller than him. Using that logic, Shawn Bradley is 7" taller than Hakeem. Is Shawn Bradley then better, if for nothing else, simply because he's 7" taller? Putting the ridiculousness of that aside, using a more reasonable comparison, Shaquille O'Neal is 7'1", and people have been saying that Shaq is behind only the Big Three of centers and has surpassed Hakeem. By your logic, Shaq is better than Hakeem if for nothing else simply because HE'S 2" taller than Hakeem. Do you see the fallacy in that line of reasoning?




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THE REGULATOR
"I'm not the showstopper, I'm _RUNNING_ the show!"

 

Well, it wouldn't be a NEW argument seeing as they retired 40 years ago.

Russell vs Wilt? Where was that mentioned in this thread?





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When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.-
Albert Einstein

 

What you are failing to notice is, Cousy retired after the '63 season, Sharman retired after the '61 season, Heinsohn retired after the '65 season, Havlicek didn't start his career until the '63 season.

Yet from '57 until '69 the Celtics won 11 championships. The one constant was Russell.

Anybody else care to attempt to shoot down the legend of Russell?



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When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.-
Albert Einstein

 

I totally respect the legend of Russell. He was one of the great ones, but I also believe the Dream was better.

Russell had one really good big man to play against. Dream had Shaq, Robinson, and Mutombo, among others. Russell played on teams which were just plain stronger than their opposition, and in a time when athletes were virtually owned by their teams. So Boston stayed on top a long time.

Dream played on teams with a little better than average supporting talent.

But Russell was a great player and an even greater man. As an individual, he rates higher than the Dream. Hakeem never had to put up with that kind of treatment, unless you want to count the time the rich folks wanted to stop him from buying into the Huntingdon high rise as an investment.

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Bill Russell will be on The Jim Rome show this Thursday (21st) for anyone interested.

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When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.-
Albert Einstein

 

Bill Russell only played one side of the ball, so you cannot rate him on the same level as Hakeem.

It's not that he "didn't have to score", it's that he couldn't score. Look at his numbers. He's something like 40% from the field for his career -- simply eye-opening.

 

Heypartner gave no other criteria other than height. Based on the criteria which was given, if Hakeem > Russell because he's 2" taller, then Bradley > Hakeem because he's 7" taller if you're basing it ONLY on height. But we all know that Bradley is nowhere near Olajuwon. However, Shaq and Hakeem CAN be compared. Based on the criteria that heypartner gave, Shaq > Hakeem if for nothing else, simply because he's 2" taller. Heypartner would then agree with the people who say that Shaq is better than Hakeem was. True or false?



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THE REGULATOR
"I'm not the showstopper, I'm _RUNNING_ the show!"

 

Exactly. People fail to realize this. Players came and players went...Russell was the ONLY one the the whole way through. Yet HE ALWAYS WON. Is this written off as a mere coincidence? The man simply knew how to win better than anyone. EVER.In 1968, Boston was down 3-1 to Philadelphia in the Eastern Conference Finals. No team in NBA history had ever come from a 3-1 deficit to win a series. Russell led his team to victory. In 1969, everyone wrote the Celtics off. They were old...washed up. It was the end of their dynasty. They would not have homecourt advantage for ANY series in the playoffs, but they got to the Finals. Once they got there, they had to face the L.A. Lakers with Chamberlain, Baylor and West--THREE of the top TEN players ever to play the game ON THE SAME TEAM! (Is there any other team in the history of sports which had 3 of the top 10 players ever to play that particular sport on the same team playing together at the same time?) The Celtics were given NO chance to win. Down 3-2, the Celtics came back and won the next two to take the title, including Game 7 in LA, where they had 10,000 balloons on the ceiling and the USC marching band there to celebrate their inevitable victory. How can you just write that off? Russell had the will and the drive to lead his teams to victory even when they WEREN'T the most talented, as that clearly demonstrates...



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THE REGULATOR
"I'm not the showstopper, I'm _RUNNING_ the show!"

 

Not true. Russell had to contend with Chamberlain, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, and since there were fewer teams in the league back then, he had to play them MORE OFTEN. He would face them 10+ times in the regular season, THEN again in the playoffs. Centers now only have to face each other four times at the most. You mention Shaq, Robinson and Mutombo, how about having to play Shaq 10 TIMES A YEAR, Robinson 10 TIMES A YEAR, Mutombo 10 TIMES A YEAR? Get it now? It's not necessary to try to dismiss the greatness of the greats of the past in order to make those of the present look better...



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THE REGULATOR
"I'm not the showstopper, I'm _RUNNING_ the show!"