Rex Grossman (did i spell that right?)

I think the old Saints and Eagles teams may have had two shutdown guys. Miami had Sartain and Madison, although they wouldn't be in Champ or Charles' class.

 

Carr and Harrinton equally impressed me this year. They both are great leaders, have some ability to improve plays (in contrast to say Troy Aikman, who couldn't), with what appear to me to be fine physical tools. They look to me in the mold of Peyton or Couch (Collins or Leaf never had to lead their teams in college), and you would be dumb to miss out on a player like that for any OL, even a Larry Allen or Bruce Mathews caliber one.

So unless one of these QBs blows at the combine, it would be great if the Texas got one of them. Even better if they could move down to a 3-10 pick to do it while picking up an extra pick or two. But if you have good reason to think one or both of these guys are franchise QBS you have to spring for it. The Mannings, NcNabbs, Couchs, McNairs, etc., are just too valuable and rare to pass up if you get a chance.

The other QB that most impressed me this year if Leftwhich at Marshall. But he isn't coming out I don't think (although that was before Marshall got on probation, so that could change I would think). I wouldn't mind the Texas drafting a more raw but physically gifted player like him or Rohan Davey. I would like such a pick better than Grossman unless the former who's the scouts more than I think he will. A good solid college QB looks great playing for Florida or Miami, but that at best translates to a 3rd stringer in the NFL.

 

If you could start with 2 young Dein Sanders--and have them play some on returns and offense, maybe. But neither Woodson or Bailey are that good, WRs do occasionally beat both of those guys. The best cover corner in the NFL now is probably Williams, but he isn't near the level Deon was either. You might have to go back as far as a young Rod Woodson (still not quite as good as Deon) or Mike Haynes.

All things being equal, if I were going to design a defense with todays players I would start with Strahan (Peppers ?) and Urlacher. If I could get 2 Deons, well then I would have to compare that with a Lawrence Taylor and a Reggie White or Bruce Smith, and then I would probably go with the latter set anyway.

 

well, if a team has woodson AND bailey, then you send your WR's downfield and run the football right down their throats; or i dump everything underneath to my FB and TE.

it's just too easy to take CB's out of the game, plus, few of them help you much in run defense, so even the great ones (like deion) can be a bit of a liability. i always thought deion's impact was overblown -- that notion that he shut down half the field was bogus, imo. what he did, and did well, was negate one WR. but that, too, is avoidable if you move your WR around.

guys like strahan, lewis, sapp... they're guys an offense has to account for every down, and they usually require 2 players just to contain them. their mere presence gives you an advantage in the numbers game alone.

there are some great corners in the league (surtain may be better than bailey), but i wouldn't place them higher on my priority list than a franchise QB, a stud DE, a mountainous LT or a smart, physical MLB with speed. not downplaying their importance, mind you, but refusing to overplay it.

 

Ric, I agree with most of your points but think you underestimate the impact Deon had in his prime. His going to the 49ers and then the Cowboys were hugely important parts of them winning the titles.

I would take a young Deon over ANY OL, after all, even the best OL can only block 1 player, and the defense can move their best rushers away from him anyway. I would rather be able to take out the opponents best WR, than simply have a LT who never missed a block. But I would NOT take a Deon over a Farve, McNabb, Manning, Faulk, Emitt Smith, Barry Sanders, Lewis, Ulracher, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White or Bruce Smith however. I also think an OLB can be just as important as an DE or MLB, we just haven't seen an LT since LT.

 

but don't you see how my LT has drastically altered your defensive scheme? first of all, you've moved your best pass rusher into my QB's natural line of sight, thereby negating any blindside advanatge (which is a big deal -- there's a reason most great pass rushers play the right side).

plus, if we assume that your other DE isn't as good as your stud pass rusher (which is fair, because, after all, you're assuming my RT isn't as good as my LT, right?), i'm now able to run behind my LT (preferred method of travel) to an area being occupied by a lesser player.

further, while true, a LT can only block one player, if you know he's going to block that one player really well, it allows you to double-team other potential threats (such as the DE you've moved to the other side of the ball), which frees you to send your back into the open field (because he doesn't have to stay back and block), deploying yet another weapon for your offense to use (something the rams can do with pace and faulk).

i gain all that just from having a dominant LT. imo, no CB could possibly impact a game that much, or, at least, more.

deion was a great CB, and his man skills allowed you to blitz the safety on his side, plus double-team the other WR, so i'm not dismissing his impact at all. but deion, at least when he was in dallas, played a side, not a man, so avoiding him was easy. also, it was actually beneficial to run at him because he was an absolute non-factor in run defense.

if i listed the top 10 players of the 90's... deion would be top 5 or 7, no question (let's see... rice, [young, elway or favre], matthews, white, b. sanders... deion -- yep, #6, ottomh), but if given the choice between a LT as good as deion was a CB... i'd take the LT. and i think nfl personnel people, fwiw, would as well. it's not uncommon to see a LT go top 5 in a draft, but when was the last time a CB went top five?

 

<B>it's not uncommon to see a LT go top 5 in a draft, but when was the last time a CB went top five?</B>

Since 1990, 5 tackles (LT or RT) have gone top in the Top 5 (Leonard Davis, Chris Samuels, Orlando Pace, Jonathan Ogden, Tony Boselli).

7 DBs (CB or S) have been taken Top 5 in that time (Charles Woodson, Shawn Springs, Bryant Westbrook, Terrell Buckley, Eric Turner, Bruce Pickens, Todd Lyght)

 

Not that it matters, but I think Pickens was a safety, no? But, Davis was moved to guard. I'll tell you this, the OT group looks alot more impressive than the CB group.

 

i have to call BS. BS! BS! BS! iirc, turner, lyght and pickens were ALL S, and this was a discussion of LT's v CB's. so i win!! woo-hoo!! 1-to-nuthin', baby!

another quick point (thanks for looking those up, btw): look at the disparity in terms of nfl production from this list. every one of those tackles is a legitimate stud in the nfl. boselli, ogden and pace are three of the best players in all of football, and it's only a matter of time before samuels and (especially) davis at least rise to a near-comparable level.

now look at the list of DB's: ehhhhhh... didn't work out as well.... i, at least, found that interesting.

 

Well, those corners in that group are awefully good as well. Ric, you bring up some good points. Still, if I were to choose between say the next Deion or Bruce Mathews (arguably the best OL over the same period)--assuming similar character and contract--I don't know, I would probably have to go with Deion. Especially when you consider him in other roles (best returner in the game).
I agree this is a difficult call, and either position (OT, CB) loses out to the comparably great QB, RB, DE and LB for sure.

Besides, no matter how good an player was offensive lineman, I don't remember the best ones consistently stopping guys like LT, Derrick Thomas, Reggie White or Bruce Smith (maybe add Strahan here now) 1 one 1. Besides, OL is probably the place where 1 player has the least impact if the other guys are not particularly capable or on different pages. Even if 1 lineman is great and the other 4 are average, you don't have a great offensive line. But having 5 good individual offensive lineman work well together, you can have a great O-line.

Also, a couple of more tidbits. Many of the best offensive linemen were not high draft picks, just like for other positions. Finally, they can be busts too, that steriod filled Packer tackle in the late 80's/early90's was one of the all-time biggest NFL busts.

Interesting topic.

 

Ric, I think Lyght is a cb. That being said, I'd take that OL group. Boselli, Ogden, Davis, and Pace are dominators.

 

whoah! not me. matthews exceled at every spot on the line; i'd kill for that kind of flexibility. larry allen's that good, too.

but this is just a difference in philosophies. neither one of us is right; neither one of us is wrong. (tho, i think i'm a little more right )

man, do you not remember boselli single-handedly shutting down smith in the '96 playoffs?

but your other point is valid (not that your previous one was invalid...) -- a guy like deion is great, and doesn't necessarily need to team with another great CB to maximize his greatness. whereas a boselli better have at least four functional linemates around him or he's basically wasted.

another valid point. in general, OL need to be big. if they are, that's more than half the battle. from there, they can, theoretically, be coached.

a CB needs speed, height and/or ups, instincts, hands... he has to be able to run with his back to the ball and react to it in the air. i'd say finding a great CB is probably infinitely harder than finding a great LT. in that light, if you have a deion-esque CB and a ogden-esque LT... well, it's certainly a more difficult decison than i initially gave it credit for being.

 

QB Harrington sprains knee in first quarter

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Associated Press


SAN FRANCISCO -- Oregon quarterback Joey Harrington sprained his right knee during the first quarter of the East-West Shrine game on Saturday.

He did not return to the game as a precautionary measure.

"Hopefully it's nothing serious," West coach Bellotti said of Harrington after the game. "He's walking, but it's sore. It will probably be a couple of weeks."


Harrington, finished fourth in Heisman Trophy balloting, was apparently stepped on during a pass play. Blitzing is not allowed in the all-star game.


Harrington was 1-of-5 for 23 yards before leaving with 7:38 left in the first quarter.


Harrington only was scheduled to play one quarter.

Hopefully this isn't serious. Sucks for Harrington if he isn't able to play in any other exhibition games before the draft.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/news/2002/0112/1310403.html

 

There are exceptions. Remember Denver's line from a few years back? They were about the smallest in the league, and also the best. I also think that when you're talking about drafting guys, in many cases you can project that some of the 2nd and 3rd round guys can put on 20 to 30 pounds once they become full time pros.

Finally, especially when talking about left tackle, you better make sure that they have quickness and aren't too big. The perfect example of this is Aaron Gibson, the Lions first pick in 1999. He was supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but couldn't stay in shape, balooned up to 400lbs, and lost his quickness, and got released.

This is also why you generaly see tackles drafted at the top, but not guards and centers. The tackle position requires not only a big guy, but a big, athletic/quick type guy, which is a rare combo.

Gibson, BTW, is a guy who I'd love to see the Texans pick up on the cheap and move to guard. I think he could be awesome if you could protect him a bit.