First off, it was a bull**** Clintonesque non-answer. Haven did what he often does, he squirms his way into not answering questions posed to him and then runs to mommy when he's faced with difficult issues. Secondly, you don't know what my beliefs are obviously and I have not shut down anyone's opinions. I simply asked a direct question for which I sought a direct answer. Get your own reality check. For the record, I have not claimed any outrageous military response, no hatred, no anything. Perhaps reading what I'm typing would serve better than imagining what I've said.
Glynch, I never said that our government is perfect. Now is not the time to get on your little soapbox and give us a diatribe about the government. Blah blah blah about the Vietnam War. So, you were against it. To each his own. Do I want to see us go to war? HELL, NO!! But at the same time, I'm not going to listen to all this liberal **** and see more and more innocent people die. Guys: do you think if we don't do anything, that this is just going to go away? It's not like that feeling you get when you eat ice cream too fast. We need to make sure that our country is united at this time. This is exactly what Bin Laden and his followers wanted: for us to fall apart and not stick together. You-all go ahead and smoke your peace pipes and preach flower power and read your poetry and play the bongos--I'm going to stand behind whatever this country does 100%. If you and others don't like that, then that is tough ****!
Manny. Here here !!! One more thing, it is because people are willing to go to war to defend everyone's ability to express their views that you are able to do so. Don't you think the average guy in Iraq, or Iran, or Afgahnastan would appreciate the same privelidge? HMMMMMMMM? Now, I have asked this in many threads, so all of you that are simply criticizing, please step up to the plate, and outline the steps that you feel the US government should take in response to this attack. The floor is yours gentelmen, please be man enough to tell us your solutions. DaDakota
You know it's not even worth saying anything else to somebody like you, so I'm glad that you have taken this stance.
I think the scenario to fight these terrorists will do down as Treeman has suggested. It's obvious that economic sanctions will do nothing to stop this and it's obvious that simply eradicating bin Laden will not stop this either. It seems we are in for a systematic removal of terrorist infrastructures starting with Afghanistan and Iraq, then moving on down the line. I suspect that an international coalition of ground forces will be involved and it will take quite some time. This is really a chance to do something unprecedented in the history of the world.
Dakota: I was wondering when you would see all this. Doesn't it break your heart that these people don't get it? LOL, on these people responding to your challenge. The funny thing is I have never been one that is conservative or liberal . I have always been in the middle, but I couldn't help but break my silence after reading so many posts where people felt like Haven, DVauthrin, and "God", I mean Tolpatsch Verkinder. I don't take for granted one minute that I'm an American. I thank God every day because he has truly blessed me. It's like I said earlier and Lynus originally said it, these people need to get off their f***ing high horses and show some goddang patriotism. I planned on going to bed early, tonight. Oh well. Peace and keep dropping the knowledge.
I won't presume to speak for the others you have misinterpreted, MR, but as far as my quote goes... Where in that quote do I imply that the US had this coming? When I said that I don't support terrorism? Or is your thinking so limited that in order to condemn someone's actions you have to automatically dismiss any motive they may have had for their actions as madness or lies? If a man kills another man because that man raped his wife, do we excuse the murderer? No. Do we pretend that he had no motive? No. In fact, establishing motive is an integral part of convicting someone. But you would have us pretend that there is no substance to their complaints because of the horror that they perpetrated, or contend that anyone who sees any factual basis for their complaints is implying that that excuses their terrorism!?!?!!? Suppose I state that the Federal Government occasionally exceeds it's authority...does it follow that I think the people in Oklahoma had it coming? Were I to suggest that the Western Powers mishandled the whole Israel thing, and seriously screwed the Palestinians, do you equate that to supporting the PLO's bombing campaigns? How far do you go with these assumptions of implications? Seriously, take a look at the leaps of logic you are making to come up with your conclusions....
Manny, I am also in the middle, I even voted for Clinton over Bush the first time around. I just don't get people that do not understand that this will continue to happen over and over again if we do not move to strike it out. It is not about Liberal vs Conservative, it is about doing what is right for the free world. We have an unprecedented chance to unite the World against Terrorism, and to lead the world into this new century. We have to do it and do it hard. Now.. I Posted this in another thread and I will post it again here: This is the course of action I am proposing. I would like to see some of these hard critics to post what they think we should do. 1. Give Afgahnastan 48 hours to hand over Bin Laden, or suffer the consequences. 2. Make no dileniation between a terrorist and those who openly harbor or support terrorism. 3. Be proactive in waging war on terrorism. 4. Make the strikes as surgical as possible, minimize collateral damages. ( I personally prefer an international Anti Terrorist team of commandos) 5. Take a stance that this group will whipe out terrorism wherever it stands before terrorists can strike. Now, where in there does it say to kill innocent civilians or to bomb anyone? Step on up critics, take a swing, the floor is all yours. DaDakota
War -- The argument on whether to take arms or not is moot -- we're going to war and no amount of intellectualizing will change that. The time for sitting behind desks and soliciting opinions and critisms is over. In due time, our men will be sent to defend our country and its ideals, some of them will be friends, some of them will be family. Some of them will not come home. Will you be content to theorize while our men are dying? Noone wants to see innocents die but such is the world we live in. To preserve those things we hold dear, we have to destroy those things they hold dear When the call comes, will you be there to answer?
I think that some of you guys either didn't read my post or didn't take it seriously (Timing excepted). Let me restate it: The die is cast. We are going to war. You guys can argue about it, b**** about it, lament the fact all you want. But we are going to war. There will be ground wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq, at a minimum. I suspect that many of the other nations on our sh*tlist will finally cooperate now that they know that we are resolved. Bush, Powell, and their underlings have been making threatening - very threatening - calls to world leaders since they figured out the broad strategy that they - we - are now going to take. Most of those nations will probably cooperate. Their alternative is death. Read this loud and clear: **Anyone** who does not cooperate with us in taking out terrorists worldwide goes on our sh*tlist and will be attacked. I have a few defense connections, and this is what I'm hearing. We are dead serious, and being a terrorist is about to become a very unhealthy profession. Supporeting one in any way is also extremely dangerous at this point. Anyone who doesn't like it can go hide their head in a hole while World War III begins.
BTW - God, I went back and edited my post taking attitude out and replacing it with implication. However, someone who is so versed and skilled with the English language should know of things like synonyms. Implication--attitude--who really gives a f***? You attached "your callous" to it, so you my friend are the one who started all this name-calling. Like I said before your is a form of you and callous is an adjective. To use something as benign as a sentence structure is weak and lame. However, I am man enough to admit my mistake and I corrected it. You know I make mistakes all the time just like the US has done before in the past. I guess it shows that I'm not perfect and neither is the US govt. Just because the US is not perfect doesn't mean...oh forget it--I'm not supposed to argue with you anyway.
Wow Treeman, good read. Now the only real worry is the Chinese, what will they do during all this? DaDakota
Gentlemen, this is absolutely not the time to get into the classic liberal-dove Vs the conservative-hawk arguments with each other. The childish name calling is especially uncalled for. One of the things that makes this country a good place to live is that we have the right to publicly agree and disagree with each other and with the processes of our government. but in a time of crisis such as this, it behooves us to support out leaders and trust in them to do what is right for our country. People are always goin to hate us for our actions but as long as we are working in the best intrests of our country and our allies, we must do what we believe to be right regardless of our opponents views. before you start in on me or start throwing the same old tired argument about how we brought on the bad feelings by our past actions, stop and consider that we did not start this campaign of terror that bin Laden and his ilk started against us. Our support of Isreal was just the same as the aid and support we have shown to all of our allies. (btw..Why is it forgotten that the Jewish people came from that region in centuries past and have just as much right to a homeland in that region just like the Palestinians do?) Also..what business is it of bin Ladens' to start a holy war against us because of that? You say that he can because we won't leave Saudi Arabia?? Has the government there requested that we leave?? Not that I have ever heard.. To my knowledge, we are there to help keep Iraq from trying to take over smaller countries. Am I wrong? could be..I don't pretend to be a ME expert, I'm just a normal ordinary citizen of our great country. Also, I dont advocate nuclear war..(ignore my sig I was pissed) So dont start trying to call me on that either..I'll change it later.. I had to respond before I lost my train of thought (too late)..] I elaborate further on this subject when I have a clearer mind tomorrow. Good night to all of you , Christian, Muslim , Atheist , and Agnostic alike. May whatever form of supreme being you believe in watch over you and yours..
As evidenced by my phrasing I was answering questions. However, I don't see how any of this is saying that the US had it coming. I am stating historical occurences, and saying that I can understand why Bin Laden has issues with the U.S. based on his experience. As a matter of record I was responding to a post stating that all Afghanistanians should be gratefull for their existence thanks to U.S. funding, which homogenized them as a people and failed to account for the fact that we supported some of them, that they are not all of one mind just because they're all in one country, and we selectivley supported groups in Afghanistan, and those we didn't support don't feel all that gratefull. I'm not stating opinion here, this is fact. Look it up. In fact, I have given no opinion on the subject. With regards to Bin Laden, I was only recounting history. If you're interested, his Biography, which aired on A&E long before Sept. 11th, recounts the exact same facts as I mentioned...I suppose that those bastards at A&E stated those facts as a pre-emptive justification for any of Bin Laden's terrorist actions?...Don't they understand that anyone who is anti-American is automatically not entitled to have a past which might explain their attitude? There is a HUGE distinction between understanding or even agreeing with someone's complaints and justifying their actions. If you don't see that, I don't even know how else to explain it to you...
I am really tired and tired of arguing about this! Jag, If you have read the whole thread instead of selected posts or just skimming through, you would realize that Haven derided DAROckets for even starting this thread. Lynus said in general that people around here needed to quit acting like the US had this coming to them. Haven responded that nobody had said that. I responded by echoing Lynus's comments. Haven came back and said the same thing ignoring the fact that I had said it was implied by several people that our foreign policy caused this. Haven challenged me to find posts, any posts, that conveyed this message. I went to DaDakota's thread about Carving Up the Middle East and pulled what he was challenging me to do. Haven later said something that contradicted himself and that's when other people called him on it. Are you happy, now? I'll be glad to discuss any other questions you have, but it will probably have to be tomorrow afternoon because I need sleep and I do have to work for 4 hours tomorrow morning. Next time, please read the entire thread.
I'm tired too, but I'll try one last time. I was not, have not, will not imply that US foreign policy was the CAUSE for what happened. I stated that the actions of the terrorists does not negate the truth of some of their complaints, and that "carving up" the Middle East is morally and ethically wrong for a diplomatic nation to even consider under these circumstances. I fail to see how your re-cap of the posts leading up to your stating that I "implied" that the US had it coming will either clarify things or make me happy...
