Nick Wright: We lie about Michael Jordan

If it was ok for Magic to sit in the West in the 80's (with Kareem and Worthy at that) then it's ok for LeBron to sit in the East now. Do you have an issue with Magic too?

 

I'm not seeing how his career was greater than the ones Russell or Kareem had.

As far as putting players from today in the league in Russell's day, they wouldn't dominate under those rules unless they changed their games up. They actually called stuff like traveling and charging by the book.

 

no you m' fer(nick), YOU lie about it so you can keep talking about Lebron. This guy gets on my last nerves. lebron, lebron, lebron, lebron, lebron. Does he know another topic.

 

Too many TL/DR’s going on in this thread...

 

the reason jordan was able to get passed orlando AFTER his comeback the year after is they replaced old horace grant with the worm. Period. Period.

 

Love that he brought up Jordan losing to the Magic. It really does feel like "the nba burned the tapes" as no one outside of Houston and Orlando seems to know about it.

Lebron vs Jordan is a generational issue.

 

The most over exaggerated line ever is “defense was waaaay harder back in the day”

Lol...

It was not nearly as sophisticated or nearly as smart as it is today. It was just more physical, Big deal.

Inb4 old people hammer me about the “good old days” and show me clips of “hard fouls” to argue their point.

 

I came to like him on the radio here. My problems with him were entirely about John Lopez as it turned out.

 

The NBA didn't start playing defense until the 90's. Up until then, NBA players got plenty of space to operate.

 

meh... i think hakeem was better. dude learned basketball at 15. imagine if he picked up the ball at age 7 or something.

 

He's such a LeBron stan, it's utterly nauseating. I knew Shannon was one, but damn, Wright takes the cake.

Here's my 2 cents on LeBron and Jordan (objectively speaking):

1. Jordan: Played during a more physical era, but his accolades truly speak for itself. The Eastern Conference, during his era, was murderer's row to win. From 1985 - 1998, CHI (6), BOS (3), DET (3), NYK (1), and ORL (1) all appeared in the NBA Finals. Even IND had some deep playoff runs during that time, although they didn't make it to the Finals until after Jordan won #6. Only NYK and ORL failed to win it all (Thank You Dream!). The West, during that time, was "Lakers or the field"; the only teams who got to the Finals out West were: LAL (5), HOU (3), POR (2), UTAH (2), PHX (1), and SEA (1). As tough as those teams were, it's upsetting to hear Wright say "Jordan ONLY got to the Finals 6 times" to prop up LeBron "getting there 7 straight years". If anything, considering how good those teams were, it's a testament to the Bulls they still got there twice as much than the Celtics or Pistons during that time span and never lost a championship series (and finished it without ever needing a Game 7). The Bulls ended the Bad Boy Pistons, Showtime Lakers, and prevented Drexler (as a Blazer), Barkley, Payton, Malone, and Stockton from crossing the finish line.

2. LeBron: Plays in a less physical era; his accolades are noteworthy as well. Much more of an offensive facilitator than Jordan was. The Eastern Conference, as compared to when Jordan played, is nowhere near as good (in the aspect of having "true" title contenders). With the exception of the Pistons (2004) and Heat (2006), the only teams to win the title from the East were "super teams" because of how loaded the West was then and still is now. He has gotten to the Finals 8 times total, compared to Jordan's 6, but has gone 3-5 in those series appearances (and 2 of those 3 titles went 7 games). While being regarded as the "best player in the world", he chose to "jump ship" and manufacture 2 super teams, and still has a 3-4 Finals record since.

As far as GOAT comparisons go, in my opinion, it's Jordan.

 

You're pretty much making my point. Lebron is the better player overall. He SHOULD have been dominating the league for well over a decade. Instead, as I pointed out, he's sitting 4th in the EC and 6th over all ... in a league where star power is very concentrated and will be moving onto his 4th journey in his career.

NBA is much more than just being a 'good' player. If this was the case, OKC would be sitting at the top instead of a couple losses from playoff elimination.

Would I take Lebron as a player? Absolutely. Would I take Melo? Absolutely not.

I would think most people would take Jordan is prime over Lebron in his prime. Jordan knows how to lead and win. Lebron knows how to whine, quit and join a new team if he can't compete.

 

Yeah man as soon as NBA players hit the league they completely forget how pivot correctly.
I'm sure if LeBron went to play Euroleague ball for a month he'd average zero points from travelling on every possession.

The X would suck in Y argument is ridiculous. It's like some people believe human beings aren't capable of adapting or that their environment plays zero part in how they develop.

 

If simplicity is sophistication, then yes, you are correct. You can't get any more sophisticated by simply not playing defense.

 

So don't penalize Jordan for having Scottie + Rodman but penalize LeBron for looking for help? Jordan never had to ask because by the time he would have been fed up and demanded a trade or otherwise, he got his help.

LeBron could have shut up for 20 years and stayed in Cleveland his entire career with at the absolute best, one ring, to show for it.

As much as I hate KD he is in the same boat. No rings and he's a laughingstock. One ring and people still hate on him and try to de-legitimize his legacy but he still has that ring.

Nobody can do it by themselves.

Do I care who the GOAT is? No. Just think its annoying the moment you ever try to say anything about Jordan hordes of fans come to defend him like he's their own flesh and blood father.

 

Jordan is GOAT. Not only because he dominated his era and how he (and Dream) deprived greats like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, and Ewing of rings, but also how he rose up into dominance by slaying giants from the 80s in Zeke, Larry Legend and Magic Johnson.

You can't even compare numbers. At least Lebron can compare stats with Kobe, and no one outside LA would compare Jordan with Kobe even if he had won 6 rings. Tells you how insane MJ set the standard when Kobe with his 5 rings is a notch below.

What LeBron can do is play the longevity game like Kobe, pad up stats, and win by being the most recently remembered.

Good luck with that whopper Nick Wright.

 

I dont defend Jordan for the reasons you insinuate. I too really do not care who is GOAT. I appreciate players like Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Bryant, Dirk ... many more, who play for the love of the game. These are the guys who understood they were franchise players and built the team around them. They deserve to win and i was happy for them to win (ok, maybe not Kobe). And they all had significant help. The difference is they did not quit and run and form new or bigger super teams.

I dont fault Lebron for leaving Cleveland. I dont fault any player for leaving a crappy organization. I dont mind when teams trade for better players. Im just not a fan when players start dictating the game. If Lebron was everything people imply, he wouldn't have to leave a city after the team has been ran into mediocrity. Players would be flocking to him, not away from him.

 

Yep. I do have an issue. With both Kareem and Magic. Kareem played with 2 guys who are on many top 10 ever lists the majority of his career. Kareem didn't do anything without Magic or Kareem including missing the playoffs entirely a few times. Kareem also dominated the majority of his career in the 70s where his numbers are inflated(he of course would still be amazing in any era, but his early to prime numbers are those of 60s-70s inflated players stats before returning more to modern day numbers post NBA/ABA merger).
Magic had Kareem his entire career in a weak conference, at least led the Lakers to the Finals but in the West where it was basically a 2 team race with Portland and LA still had Worthy(29), Scott(29), Sam Perkins(29), AC Green(27) Divac(22) to go along with Magic at only 31. That team today is still a contender in the EAST and probably 3rd seed in todays WEST. I highly doubt LeBron and the Cavs today would beat that Lakers team if they met in the EC playoffs. Point being is that, "oh Jordan beat the Lakers without 43 year old Kareem! That's not showtime!" is completely taking away credit that it was still a very good team led by a player many consider the GOAT himself who had another teammate considered GOAT most his career.

"Facts"
"Pistons were old."

*TRUE FACTS* Isiah Thomas (29) Joe Dumars (27) Dennis Rodman (29) Mark Aguirre (31) Bill Laimbeer (33) Vinnie Johnson (34) John Salley (26)

"OLD" The real truth is Isiah Thomas had played half the season with a bad ankle and the Pistons still won 50 games! That doesn't matter. *FACTS* That Pistons team still beat Niques HAWKS, and Birds CELTICS to even make it to the ECF. Isiah played in the Eastern Conference Finals no matter what injury excuse is thrown out there: He was garbage.

*TRUE FACT* Michael Jordan only had 1 all star teammate his entire career. The first year Pippen was an All-Star, he couldn't give Michael ANY help as he had just 2 pts on 1-10 shooting and 4reb and 2 ast in 42 minutes in GAME 7 of the ECF. Of course they lost to a multiple HOF stacked team that would go on to win the championship. A team that was 1 loss away from a three peat in 3 years they beat Michael without any other all-star teamamtes. A team that only lost 1 time to the Pacers and 1 time in the Finals to the Blazers in those playoffs. That dominant all time great team nearly got knocked out by Jordan and a 1st year all-star youngster in Pippen before Pip **** the bed in game 7. The next year, the Bulls sweep and they want to blame it on the Pistons fresh off 3 dominant seasons as "OLD and mediocre."

"FACTS"
"The greatest 5 year run in the history of the sport!" Why does he continue to spew this garbage and everyone just nod in agreement? 2 Finals wins and 3 Finals losses in those 5 years in a dump of a conference where his team was always the favorite to get to or win the Finals is NOT the greatest 5 year run in the history of the sport. It's just more opinion that he continues to yell out "FACT" with. Literally the person he's arguing against had a run of 6 championships with 0 NBA FINALS losses in 7 tries. lol...ridiculous. If it's purely statistical, there's be better. Oscar literally had a career triple double average his first 6 years in the NBA. "Greatest 5 year run in the history of the sport!!! FACTZ!!!"

"Jordan lost in the first round 3 times!" Finally a true fact. He sure did lose in the NBA Finals his first 3 years. As fate would have it, a rookie Jordan would have to face a 3 ALL-Star studded Bucks team. 2nd year Jordan would come off missing nearly the entire season and have to face Larry Bird's 86 Celtics which many argue as the GOAT team that won the championship. His 3rd year he'd have to face those same Celtics who would lose in the Finals to the 87 Lakers who many argue as the GOAT team. In ALL. Before winning a championship himself, Michael would lose to teams who won it all barely lost in the NBA finals other than the Bucks in Jordans rookie year who would lose to the Dr. J/Moses Sixers. Even in 95, the Magic went to the Finals as favorites.

"LeBron James has ZERO, count em, ZERO 1st round losses. Same as you and me and we don't play in the NBA" Well. He didn't even make the playoffs his first 2 years. Then had to face 40-42 win teams in first round the rest of his career. Let's pretend rookie,2nd year or 3rd year Michael Jordan is in the Western Conference in 2007 when OMG 22 year old LeBron James led the Cavs to the NBA finals with a bunch of bums! He's the GOAT. Let's say MJ gets swept by the eventual Spurs in the first round, meanwhile LeBron and his top 5 defensive team in a garbage confernce gets to play a 40 win team in the 1st round, a 40 win team in the 2nd round and a Pistons team without their HOF coach Larry Brown and 4xDPOTY Ben Wallace to make it to the Finals. That same Cavs team would have faced the Spurs in the first round and gotten swept there instead of the Finals lol. But, let's continue to argue things like "Jordan beat an old Pistons team who were all the same team that went back to back and a possession away from 3 peating" But, let's ignore LeBrons completely laughable path to the Finals every year, especially the amazing 07 run where his toughest competition was the Pistons. "He was 22 and he beat the Pistons by himself." To this day kids try to make it seem like LeBron beat the championship Pistons squad that Shaq and Kobe got their asses handed by.


Jordan lost in 95. That's a fact. Despite the clear rust. He was uncharacteristically inefficient. The loss in 95 was probably necessary.

"Facts"
"LeBron leaves teams and they are completely decimated. Jordan leaves and the Bulls nearly win it all!!1"

True fact. LeBron left a semifinals team that would have literally NO CHOICE but to tank and build their future through the draft after losing LeBron the mercenary. Blame it on Cleveland incompetent front office, i do. But, i also blame LeBron for getting his boys big pay days out of "loyalty" and then abandons ship when he realizes their cap is crippled with players that can't help him win it all. Happened the first time in Cleveland. Happened in Miami and is now happening again in Cleveland the 2nd time around before more rumors begin on his next mercenary move. Wonder what narrative he will create this time? "I want to thank the city of Cleveland, i will always remember beating a 73 win team to give you your first major sports title, i hope you will forever remember and cherish it and everything i have done too. I have given you all that i can and now it is time for me to take the next step in my career by taking my talents to the Los Angeles Lakers who have not made the playoffs in many years but the challenge is what i am all about and i look forward to bringing LA a championship." *Lakers win the championship with 3-4 other superstars next to LeBron. "LeBron is the GOAT! He joined a Lakers team that hadn't made the playoffs in a while and they won the next year!!1"

True fact. Michael left an in tact 3x defending championship team with Scottie Pippen in his peak prime and re-load with good role players and a future 6th man of the year. They lost to the Knicks in 7 games in the SEMI FINALS. (For some reason, it's become LeBronie Fact to pass along that the Bulls were 1 game away from the NBA Finals without Jordan. It was the semis. The Knicks would struggle and nearly lose to Reggie's Pacers in 7 games in the ECF also before losing in 7 to the Rockets in the Finals.) Sounds about right for a team that is still in tact with chemistry and a superstar talent at his peak. Still not a championship team though which is the ultimate goal. Give the Cavs without LeBron and a healthy Love and Kyrie and role players + a 6th man of the year and defensive specialist to replace Lebron and they easily challenge to make the ECF all the same IMO.
***The 95 Bulls led by Pippen would hover around .500 ball with virtually the same team minus Horace Grant before MJ returned for the final 17 games of the season. While 94 is an indication that the Bulls could still challenge teams without MJ, 95 was a clear sign that they couldn't sustain it without MJ. A fact clearly forgotten by MJ haters, just like the forgotten 98 season in which MJ virtually carried the Bulls by himself at 35.

True Fact. LeBron leaves Miami after realizing they don't have enough anymore and no cap or trade assets to get better and it's not enough to beat 40 year old Tim Duncan so he needs more help and Cleveland has a young future star pg and multiple trade assets including the #1 draft pick to attain more star help and brainwashes his LeBronies to think he was doing it as a homecoming for the good of his hometown. He's really great at creating narratives. I'll give him that. People eat that **** up.

True fact. Those Heat with Chris Bosh missing almost 40 games, and Wade missing almost 20 games, and no LeBron....missed the playoffs by 1 game on the last game of the season.

 

No Defense lol

 

While i can't help but feel like LeBron has a sort of manufactured career all the way down to his stats, he will be there in the argument just as Russell/Wilt/Oscar/Kareem/DrJ/Magic/Bird/Kobe/Shaq era guys argue for their own. I think time is all anyone needs.
In time, Jordan just always stands out-from a winning perspective, to a cultural icon, to statistics, to skill and sheer artistry of his craft both offensively and defensively. Time took many of the past players out of the topic including Magic and Bird who were fresh on peoples minds during MJ's time. Then came the Kobe time where in a very "what has he done for me lately" world of living in the moment, people started calling Kobe the GOAT and better than Jordan. Of course time erased that for the vast majority.
You saw it for even just a moment with Curry a few years back where people were ridiculously calling him the GOAT. Time erases all these short moments we live in, and LeBron has stood the test of time and will be there in serious argument, but will always fall short IMO.
Were 15 seasons in, 3 rings short, 3FMVP short, 1 MVP short, 1 DPOTY short, nearing 34 years old and were still debating "CAN Lebron pass up Michael Jordan as the GOAT." The truth is, the only argument left is the Kareem argument of longevity and stat accumulation over Jordan. Just as there are guys out there who use that and career achievement to say Kareem is Goat, LeBron will have that following too. It's just not enough for the majority.
Sure, Lebron can win 3 more titles and tie MJ or win 4 more and surpass him, but that is highly unlikely and if it happens, it'll happen because he just kept jumping from stacked team to stacked team or created a dream team within the next 2 seasons where it wouldn't matter if he wins 4-5 more in a row, it would just be super cheap. Maybe he gets a 4th this year due to crazy luck with injuries. That's just more asterisks to put on another title. Lets say he takes this Cavs team and beats a healthy GS or HOU team in the Finals with an incredible performance. Doesn't move the needle for me, just secures him at #2 and furthers himself from #3 only IMO. Of course we all live in the moment, and all summer we'd hear about how LeBron has surpassed MJ which of course he didn't. It's all extremely unlikely anyway.
He's better off just staying in Cleveland and stat padding for his legacy and putting records away from anyone's reach. He can do that and still go to the Finals or ECF virtually by default ever year till he's 40.

As is, he and Jordan are the 2 best in history to do it without other top 20 all time teammates(though i think Wade could have been top 20 with health) + more HOF talent, and that list includes Hakeem, but unfortunately Hakeem played far longer than any other GOAT without a decent all-star level teammate and doesn't have enough rings to be in the realistic argument for GOAT outside of Houston. If hakeem had won in 86 against stacked Bird Celtics, and had a career of 3 total rings, i'd put Hakeem at #2 easily. You could argue Dirk without another HOFer, but he had all-star level players in and out of the MAVS for the entirety of Dirks career and ended up with only 1 ring and is himself barely arguable as a top 20 player. If Hakeem had those all-star level of players coming in and out of his team every year, i think we'd be looking at Magic and Drexler as lesser than they currently are in history and Hakeem as a for sure top 3 player. That's just my probably bias opinion. When it comes to top 10 all time lists, Hakeem, MJ and LeBron had the least top caliber help. Duncan had Admiral his what? First 6 years? And a system that did just fine without him last year and won 67 games with him at 39 years old.

For me personally, i'm comfortable with people who say LeBron's #2 all time. The career and advanced stats speak for themselves. I'm just not sure i feel that way about his "on court performance" if that makes sense. It's like almost robotic the way he just barrels his way to the basket for an easy, uncontested lay up. Or just gets quick assists to 3 pt shooters in a league where everyone rockets away from 3. Everything about his movement and style is so mechanical and ugly. I respect the game and the stats, but man, i don't think there's been one point in my life where i said "I HAVE TO WATCH LEBRON JAMES PLAY!" It's kind of like watching a SF version of Shaq. If SHAQ was 6'8, he'd probably be LeBron James. That doesn't stop him from being #2. But IMO, it does help the argument against him being GOAT for me. His skill level is severely lacking to pass up MJ just as Shaq's is to be better than Hakeem in my eyes.