AggieRocket...that was a very good post. I enjoyed reading it. Iraq is a mistake, just like Vietnam was. American public was fooled on both occassions. Iraq also brought us closer to Orwell's 1984. Big Brother feeding us continous stories about the enemy out there.
AggieRocket, good post. I'm glad to see that you recognize that it is honorable to protest the war. Your post reflects the thinking of a seasoned, true and not a phony patriot. It is honorable to disagree and still go to fight, if you think that is the right thing to do. As someone who is from the same era, I can identify. I chose not to go against my conscience, and on being denied CO status, I was going to go to Canada within a few weeks. I was saved by a last minute cancelling of the draft.I remain proud of that choice I made as a young man and you should, too. Those from that era realize that in many cases it took courage to go or not to go. I find that Vietnam Veterans are generally less resentful of my stance than young chickenhawks. What doesn't take courage, or is not honorable, is to not go and then pretend to be a big warrrior like George Bush. I do question your stance on Jane Fonda as a somewhat overreaction. Was it stupid to do so? Probably. . Was it as wrong as lying us into the war in the first place? No. Should LBJ or McNamara get at least as much critiicism as Fonda? Yes. When your country is doing wrong must your protest be within the traditional bounds of patriotism? No. A few Germans and Russians resisted Hitler or Stalin outside the bounds of traditonal patriotiism to their country and the world thanks them for it. Were LBJ and McNamara as bad as Hitler and Stalin? No. But "my country right or wrong" is an immoral principle. Jane was trying to protest what for her was an immoral war and for this she should be praised , though her tactics are rightly questioned. .
Karzai says newsweek was not to blame for the riots in Afghanistan contrary to what the whitehouse would have us believe.
no ima, you're not getting it straight. It's Bush's fault for putting the blame for the violence on the retracted story when in fact reports show that the violence stemmed from something other than the Newsweek story.
Apparently the troops on the ground told Meyers that it wasn't caused by Newsweek, now some of our own posters appear to be calling these troops liars. It's shameful when people can't support these brave young Americans who are putting their life on the line doing such a valiant job of defending our valiant nation. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0505/S00280.htm The U.S. troops on the ground say it wasn't related, but others want to pin the blame on the media, and doubt our brave hard working troops.
Here's a Newsweek article in a different light Here are some quotes: and more... I suppose it could all be bunk by the defense department...but i'm not really sure it's less credible than the original reports. And published by Newsweek, no less. Maybe not as cut and dried as we portray.
Guantanamo Prisoners Told FBI of Koran Desecration in 2002, New Documents Reveal May 25, 2005 http://www.aclu.org/news/NewsPrint.cfm?ID=18320&c=206 NEW YORK -- New documents released by the FBI include previously undisclosed interviews in which prisoners at Guantanamo complain that guards have mistreated the Koran, the American Civil Liberties Union said today. In one 2002 summary, an FBI interrogator notes a prisoner's allegation that guards flushed a Koran down the toilet. The disclosure comes on the heels of controversy over a Newsweek report saying that government investigators had corroborated an almost identical incident. Newsweek ultimately retracted its story because a confidential government source could not be confirmed. "The United States government continues to turn a blind eye to mounting evidence of widespread abuse of detainees held in its custody," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero. "If we are to truly repair America's standing in the world, the Bush Administration must hold accountable high-ranking officials who allow the continuing abuse and torture of detainees." According to the FBI documents, a detainee interviewed in August 2002 said that guards had flushed the Koran in the toilet. Others reported the Koran being kicked, withheld as punishment, and thrown on the floor, and said they were mocked during prayers. The release of the FBI interviews follows the disclosure last week of Defense Department documents regarding other cases in which military personnel mistreated the Koran and used a religious symbol to taunt detainees. In the documents released today, one detainee informs his FBI interviewers that using the Koran "as a reprisal or as an incentive for cooperation has failed," and that the only result would be "the damage caused to the reputation of the United States once what had occurred was released to the world." While another detainee acknowledged that there might be "a legitimate need to search the book for hidden items," he objected to the abusive manner in which the searches were conducted. "The United States government's own documents show that it has known of numerous allegations of Koran desecration for a significant period of time," said Amrit Singh, an attorney with the ACLU's Immigrants' Rights Project. "Its failure to address these allegations in a timely manner raises grave questions regarding the extent to which such desecration was authorized by high-ranking U.S. officials in the first place." In addition to complaints about treatment of the Koran, the latest documents include reports of: Beatings. On August 23, 2002, a detainee told an interviewer of being "kicked in the stomach and back by several individuals" after being turned over to U.S. authorities. On one occasion during prayer time, a soldier placed his foot on [his] head and sat on his head." Another interviewer was told on August 28, 2002 of a detainee being "kicked violently in the jaw" after he tripped and fell while handcuffed. Planned Suicides. Several detainees spoke of suicidal thoughts while in custody. In December 2002, one reported that "40-50 detainees intended to commit suicide after Ramadan ended because they were tired of being detained with no prospect of being released and they were tired of being mistreated by guards." Hunger Strikes. An interviewer noted that the "mental condition of the detainees is to the point where the detainees are participating in a hunger strike. [They] are upset with the way they are treated by the guards." One man had not eaten in six days or changed his clothes and "insisted on being charged with a crime or released." Sexual Assaults. In April 2003, a detainee told interviewers that a female guard fondled his genitals while male guards held him down. She told him that she was having her menstrual period and "she wiped blood from her body on his face and head." (A similar incident is described in a recently released book by former Guantanamo interrogator Erik Saar.) The FBI released the documents last week in response to a federal court order that directed the FBI and other government agencies to comply with a request under the Freedom of Information Act filed by the ACLU, the Center for Constitutional Rights, Physicians for Human Rights, Veterans for Common Sense and Veterans for Peace. The New York Civil Liberties Union is co-counsel in the case. To date, more than 35,000 pages of government documents have been released in response to the ACLU's Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The ACLU has been posting these documents online at www.aclu.org/torturefoia. The documents released this week are online at http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/052505/. Tomorrow, the ACLU will return to court to argue that Defense Department and CIA are unlawfully withholding documents concerning abuse and torture of prisoners. The FOIA lawsuit is being handled by Lawrence Lustberg and Megan Lewis of the New Jersey-based law firm Gibbons, Del Deo, Dolan, Griffinger & Vecchione, P.C. Other attorneys in the case are Singh, Jameel Jaffer, and Judy Rabinovitz of the ACLU; Arthur N. Eisenberg and Beth Haroules of the NYCLU; and Barbara Olshansky of the Center for Constitutional Rights.
Scott McClellan - "The [Koran flushing]allegations are ridiculous and unsupported by the facts. The United States is leading the way when it comes to protecting human rights and promoting human dignity." oops, looks like they are supported by the facts Scott
It isn't possible to know with 100% certainty, but when it turns out that multiple sources report similar incidents, it is newsworthy. Newsweek were still wrong in the way they reported the story, and deserve to be reprimanded. But there poor journalism does not exhonorate anyone of what happened at gitmo.
What multiple sources? The source Newsweek relied on backed off. So the only source you have are the prisoners.
Interesting which "side" we believe. Two articles on the newly released documents. One by the ACLU with editorial comment from its lawyers. One from Newsweek with the DOF position. I find it hard to believe NO such incidents exist. But am encouraged if the standards discussed in the Newsweek article were in place.
There is the FBI report, the old Red Cross report which said they had defaced the Koran but the problem was rectified. The Newsweek source said he couldn't be sure the report the said what he originally believed it did, but never denied that the actions happened. There are also muliple prisoners all saying the same thing. It isn't just one prisoner who made the claim. It is many of them.
