How about specifically for the flushing, were there any reports on that at all? As for the multiple prisoners, it is plausible for me to think that false rumours were spread among them.
Depending on conditions it may or may not be be plausible. It is probably possible. But that is like saying that we should discount any govt. source that claims the story is false, because someone could have circulated rumors that it never happened. I don't know about specifically flushing.
We're bending over backwards to accommodate their religious beliefs. The fact that we provide them with Qu'rans, a prayer mat and the direction of Mecca is proof positive that we are looking to satisfy their religious needs. Somehow I don't think our troops would be afforded similar luxuries if captured in the Middle East... I can't believe you assume that the prisoners' word is credible. You're more willing to give these scumbags the benefit of the doubt over our brave troops? Typical. Whatever suits your anti-war beliefs... Chew on this story and let me know what you think FB. Owned again brah. http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3198709 Prisoner recants Quran abuse allegation Associated Press WASHINGTON — A prisoner at Guantanamo Bay who complained that a military guard threw a Quran holy book in the toilet has since recanted the story, senior Pentagon officials said today. The prisoner, who made his complaint in an FBI interrogation in July 2002, is one of several quoted in newly released documents as saying that U.S. military personnel desecrated the Qurans of Muslim detainees at the prison. Allegations of Quran abuse have led to heated discussion — and even deadly demonstrations in Afghanistan — since a Newsweek magazine report, later retracted, that U.S. officials had confirmed a Quran was flushed in a toilet. "Their behavior is bad," one detainee is quoted as saying of his guards during an interrogation by an FBI special agent on July 22, 2002. "About five months ago the guards beat the detainees. They flushed a Quran in the toilet." Lawrence Di Rita, spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, told reporters that U.S. investigators had re-interviewed the unidentified prisoner on May 14. "He has said it didn't happen," Di Rita said. A day earlier the spokesman had said the detainee had not corroborated his original story when he was re-questioned, but today the spokesman went a step further. "So the underlying allegation, the detainee himself within the last two weeks said that didn't happen," Di Rita said. Another spokesman, Bryan Whitman, said the detainee "indicated, when asked about the desecration, that he was not knowledgeable of anything." In a fresh disclosure today, the ACLU released copies of an FBI document dated Nov. 25, 2003, that referred to "information concerning impersonation by (Defense Department) interrogators at Guantanamo representing themselves to be officials of the FBI and U.S. State Department." Most of the rest of the document was blacked out by censors before it was released to the ACLU under the Freedom of Information Act. FBI e-mails released to the ACLU last December had indicated that military interrogators had impersonated FBI agents, but this was the first time that impersonation of State Department officials was alleged. Di Rita said this was being checked as part of a broader investigation of known FBI records on misconduct at Guantanamo. The Pentagon has been under fire from a number of critics for alleged mistreatment of Muslims held prisoner at Guantanamo Bay since January 2002 and in Iraq and Afghanistan more recently. Di Rita insisted today that although investigations at Guantanamo Bay are not yet complete, it appears that many of the charges are groundless. "Most of them are nonsense," he said, referring specifically to those related to alleged desecration of the Quran at Guantanamo Bay. Di Rita said it was not reasonable to believe that U.S. guards or interrogators would intentionally abuse the Quran. "As we understand it at the moment, we know that they have been extremely cautious, that the interrogators and the police are trained to know that this is a high-sensitivity issue so don't use it because it's too sensitive," he said. "And then what we're trying to determine is: Are there people who violated that? And so far we haven't been able to develop any chain of indications that would suggest that."
Do not know what to say here, the guy retracted his statement just like Newsweek. You can believe just about anything at this point I guess. Link Pentagon says detainee retracts Koran allegation Reuters - 1 hour, 38 minutes ago WASHINGTON - The Guantanamo detainee who told an FBI agent in 2002 that U.S. personnel there had flushed a Koran in a toilet retracted his allegation when questioned this month by military investigators, the Pentagon said on Thursday. "We've gone back to the detainee who allegedly made the allegation and he has said it didn't happen. So the underlying allegation, the detainee himself, within the last two weeks, said that didn't happen," chief Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita told a briefing.
I thought we were talking about the flushing, for which there is zero evidence. As far as other allegations, I do believe that they have happened, and the military needs to do a better job of communicating the proper rules and punishing those who don't follow them.
That isn't what I am saying at all. I'm saying that it might be a valid news story if there is substantial allegation that it happened from various credible sources. Guilty until proven innocent might be the M.O. of the way our govt. is running Gitmo, but it isn't my M.O.
its not like innocent until proven guilty is the U.S's motto .....in international affairs that is....so
Who are you calling scumbags? Judging by the history at Gitmo, there is nearly even odds the prisoners aren't a threat. I was pleased to hear about the prayer mats, holy books, and other accomodations. I think that is great, and should be the way the place is run. I don't think there is any argument about that. I hope that the trashing of the Koran didn't happen. If it didn't happen, then I am certainly happy about it. I don't know what our troops would be allowed in Iraq if they were prisoners. I do know that the girls who were imprisoned in Afghanistan were allowed to pray and read the bible. It's not the troops word that I doubt. It is the department of defenses word I doubt. They have a track record of dishonesty, lies, and meathanded handling of cultural issues.
I think he was talking about the prisoners who have not had a trial, a chance to see a lawyer or show that they might not be terrorists. It is disturbing since nearly half of those detained so far have been released because despite being imprisoned and spending various amounts of time locked up, they were eventually shown to not be a threat. In addition to those you have the ones like the man who was innocent, but sent to Syria by the U.S. so the Syrians could torture him for information he turned out not to have. That policy by the U.S. is one that he most likely was talking about. It is a far cry from innocent until proven guilty.
Some interesting comment from a blog. ******** However, given the preponderance of evidence that detainees in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guantánamo Bay have been tortured, the continued indignation from the Right about one detail in one story seems increasingly pathetic. As Jeanne d'Arc says, Not just in Guantanamo, but everywhere the US holds prisoners, we've witnessed numerous cases of people picked up, imprisoned, tortured, and sometimes even killed, who were guilty of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or having the wrong name. No matter, say the righties. You can't prove anybody flushed a Q'ran down the toilet. Nyah nyah nyah. ... As Terry Neal wrote in Monday's WaPo: A certain and clear pattern has emerged when a damaging accusation or claim against the Bush administration or the Republican-led Congress is publicized: Bush supporters laser in on a weakness, fallacy or inaccuracy in the story's sourcing while diverting all attention from the issue at hand to the source or the accuser in the story. Often this tactic involves efforts to delegitimize the entire news media based on the mistakes or sloppy reporting of a few. We saw this with the discrediting of CBS's story on irregularities in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service in the 1970s. Although the CBS "scoop" was based on faked documents, the administration's response and backlash from both conservative and mainstream media essentially relieved Bush of having to deal with the story. In other words, the allegedly "liberal" media dropped the story like a hot rock. This is the modus operandi we've seen countless times, on blogs, on web forums, going back to the old Usenet flame wars. Instead of dealing honestly with issues, righties will pick out one weak fragment of an article or essay to challenge or ridicule, thereby pulling threads off-topic and deflecting attention away from the larger, usually unassailable, point. So many of them do it so consistently one wonders if they all took the same mail-order course in discussion sabotage. Righties continue to trust Pentagon denials (like they wouldn't lie) and accuse the "MSM" of smearing the troops. We even get the argument that an entire book cannot be flushed whole, which rather ignores the fact that books can pretty easily be broken up into bits first (D'oh!). Most of the Right Blogosphere is no more capable of honestly facing the torture issue than they can fly. link
mc marc already responded what I would have responded. Since when does the International red cross, and the FBI not count as newsworthy sources? I had talked about them previously. Maybe you missed it.
glynch -- i think the chances are very good our country has done some horrible things here. i think the chances are better than fair that US interrogators have defaced the Koran in all this. i just dislike the tone of that article...not because it's coming from the left, because i dislike the tone of the rush limbaugh show, as welll....but because it so clearly demonstrates the "team sports" nature of politics right now. to the point where we've nicknamed one side the "righties." it's easy to hate or demonize people you don't know without ever taking the time to hear them out. there are interests behind every position that are legitimate (keep in mind, i'm not saying there's anything legit about torture or defacing a faith). i just find it disappointing, all the way around.
ahh, but yes there is when will the administration take responsibility for ANYTHING they do? ALL THEY DO IS LIE TO US Pentagon Confirms Koran Incidents 'Mishandling' Cases Preceded Guidelines Established in 2003 By Josh White and Dan Eggen Washington Post Staff Writers Friday, May 27, 2005; A01 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/26/AR2005052601220.html Pentagon officials said yesterday that investigators have identified five incidents of military guards and an interrogator "mishandling" the Koran at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, but characterized the episodes as minor and said most occurred before specific rules on the treatment of Muslim holy items were issued. Brig. Gen. Jay W. Hood, commander of Joint Task Force Guantanamo, said investigators have looked into 13 specific allegations of Koran desecration at the prison dating to early 2002 and have determined eight of them to be unfounded, lacking credibility or the result of accidental touching of the holy book. Of the five cases of mishandling, three were "very likely" deliberate and two were "very likely accidental," he said. But Hood declined to provide details, citing an ongoing investigation. Hood's comments marked the first time the Pentagon has confirmed mistreatment of the Muslim book at Guantanamo Bay. Captives and some military personnel there have made claims of Koran desecration, but in a statement last week, Pentagon spokesman Lawrence T. Di Rita said the Defense Department had received no credible claims of such abuse. Nevertheless, he said, officials were reviewing the allegations. Hood took pains to deny a now-retracted report in Newsweek magazine's May 9 issue that said officials had confirmed a detainee's claim that a guard had flushed a Koran down a toilet. The White House, the Pentagon and others have linked that report to riots overseas that left 16 people dead. The news conference came a day after the American Civil Liberties Union released summaries of memos from FBI agents at Guantanamo Bay that reported detainee allegations of Koran desecration. Hood played down the mistreatment as a vestige of Guantanamo Bay's early days and said it occurred without any systemic frequency. He said most of the 13 cases involved accidental or inadvertent touching of the Koran by guards and interrogators -- such as someone bumping into the holy book, or one case in which an interrogator stacked two Korans on a television set. The five confirmed cases of Koran mishandling involved four guards and one interrogator, Hood said. Six other "resolved" cases involved guards, and two involved interrogators, he said. Hood said a soldier was reassigned after one recent accidental mishandling of the Koran, and another soldier faced an unspecified disciplinary action for an incident some time ago. He added that there were also 15 cases in which detainees mishandled the Koran, including one who purposefully ripped pages out of his own book. "I want to assure you that we are committed to respecting the cultural dignity of the Koran and the detainees' practice of faith," Hood said. "Every effort has been made to provide religious articles associated with the Islamic faith, accommodate prayers and religious periods, and provide culturally acceptable meals and practices." Pentagon officials said investigators did not look into the claim that a Koran had been flushed down a toilet before the Newsweek article was published. While looking into the desecration claims after protests erupted overseas, investigators re-interviewed a detainee who had told FBI agents in July 2002 that guards had put a Koran in a toilet. That interview, on May 14, with a prisoner the Pentagon identified this week as "an enemy combatant," led investigators to believe that the claim lacked credibility. The detainee said that he "wasn't beaten or abused, but that he had heard rumors that other detainees were," Hood said. "We then proceeded to ask him about any incidences where he had seen the Koran defiled, desecrated or mishandled, and he allowed as how he hadn't, but he had heard . . . that guards at some other point in time had done this," Hood said yesterday. "He went on to describe to his interrogator that that was a problem that was only in the old camp." Hood said "old camp" apparently meant Camp X-Ray, the temporary cells where captives were held when Guantanamo Bay opened in January 2002. But he acknowledged that interrogators did not specifically ask the detainee this month whether a toilet had been involved, nor did they refer to the original statement the detainee gave to the FBI nearly three years ago. Hood emphasized that most of the confirmed incidents occurred before standard procedures were put in place in January 2003 for proper handling of the Koran. A broader investigation by the U.S. Southern Command into allegations of abuse and mistreatment contained in memos written by FBI personnel stationed at Guantanamo Bay is continuing. Hood and Di Rita declined to address the larger probe. According to U.S. Southern Command documents, officials at Guantanamo Bay were aware of the importance of the proper handling of the Koran in the facility's very first days. Responding to concerns from the International Committee of the Red Cross in January 2002, command officials wrote that they needed to make sure that detainees were allowed time to pray and that they were given appropriate ways to store their Korans. The "Koran must be kept neat and wrapped in something," according to a memo dated Jan. 21, 2002. "Can we get them a small green cloth to wrap it?" The FBI documents released Wednesday by the ACLU contained summaries of a dozen interviews in which detainees said they had witnessed or heard about mistreatment of the Koran by guards or interrogators. They also included new allegations of severe physical abuse of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan. The FBI records provide at least one example in which a detainee may have lied about mistreatment of the Koran. According to a summary of an interview with one prisoner, an uprising in July 2002 had started with a claim by another detainee that a guard had dropped a Koran. "In actuality," the summary says, "the detainee dropped the Koran and then blamed the guard. Many other detainees reacted to this claim and this initiated the uprising." The FBI documents do not indicate whether this version of events is accurate, although Pentagon officials have recounted a similar-sounding incident. FBI officials have declined to comment. The ACLU also released more FBI documents yesterday, including a memo indicating that military interrogators posed as officials from the FBI and State Department while questioning detainees at Guantanamo Bay. One memo, from November 2003, refers to "DOD interrogators at Guantanamo representing themselves to be officials of the FBI and U.S. State Department." A previously released version of the same document had revealed the FBI impersonations, but the reference to the State Department had been redacted. State Department spokesman Richard A. Boucher told reporters yesterday that he was unaware of the impersonation allegations. Another spokesman said the department does not employ interrogators or take part in interviews at Guantanamo Bay. Another newly released document, dated January 2004, suggested that the FBI would "finally make an arrest" in connection with "interrogations in June 2003 when an FBI agent was impersonated." No such arrest has been publicly announced. In several e-mails, FBI agents angrily complained about the impersonations and suggested that the ruse was aimed in part at avoiding blame for any subsequent public allegations of abuse. The earlier documents also included e-mails from FBI agents who said they had witnessed Guantanamo Bay detainees being shackled to the floor for days at a time, deprived of food and water and left to defecate on themselves.
If there were mishandlings before the guidelines, and the administration put the guidelines in place, I don't know what your problem is, flamingmoe. You act as if the US is an advocate for Qu'ran abuse. That's ignorant.
NOT saying this is OK, but this sure is different than flushing it down the toilet. Now you have Anti-American Rallies all around the world which they burn American flags. I don't quite get it, so its acceptable to burn American flags while if anyone stacked two Korans on a tv is considered such an outrage.
