The Rite of Succession by the Wakanda is almost identical to that of the Klingons when the time came to name a new Chancellor. You might not like fictional worlds of strength and honor deciding leaders in rites of succession, but I think it is wrong to call it a flawed premise just because our reality of Western Civiliaztion can't image government leaders chosen that way...indeed, Star Trek originally paints Klingons as barbaric. I found it very refreshing that the Klingons' advanced civilization still chose leaders based upon warrior honor among leading families/tribes vs our Western Civilization ways. I think it is fascinating fiction to believe that our ways of governing aren't the only ways, or so-called most civilized and advanced. I find it a fascinating idea that advanced civilizations would still chose leaders based upon strength and honor ... like American Indians, Klingons and Wakanda.
I never really saw the Kingons as an advanced civilization though. I saw it as more of a situation where they essentially stole the technological advances of others and so really they were just a super successful predatory species rather than a legit advanced civilization. Also, when you bring in the Klingons, they aren't human so you can imagine that the rules that have applied to every human civilization simply don't apply to their species if you want, with Black Panther, they are still human so everything we've learned about human history still applies to them. In reality, Wakanda would be much more like the American Indians, centuries behind the rest of the world technologically due to their backwards political system and isolation.....but then we wouldn't have a movie anyone wants to watch. Also, that's not something that just happens in "western civilizations", the Japanese tried extreme isolationism and a backwards political system....same thing happened. Maybe the Kingons can get away with it, but thousands of years worth of human history tells us that our species can't manage it. Either way though, that's thinking too deeply about it, you are supposed to just assume that Vibranium is basically magic and that magic built their civilization to be superior to all others. I just wish they'd have gone with some kind of mysticism rather than trying to pretend that the magic was really just technology that was obtained by normal circumstances.
Wakanda culture is unchanging because it is Perfect, something our history fights over to achieve. Wakanda is a Utopia. All I did as a viewer was imagine how a Utopia persists ... consistent with other Sci Fi Utopias. Human History is fascinated by the idea of a Utopia, but never really achieved it...close maybe. What would a Utopia look like to you? All bets are off if you can conjur up a plot device to make a Utopia on Earth believable. that's all this is. To me, the idea of Wakanda is simple ... let's create both a human superhero and an Earthly Utopia...and let's give them bad-ass tech. I look at Wakanda from a writer/creator's perspective as: let's imagine an Earth Utopian culture, surrounded by present day civilizations. Sci-fii fictional Utopian cultures usually mandate no change to spiritual and ritual matters....see utopias in Sci-Fi, e.g. Star Trek again. That fictional exercise in imagination wants to maintain a culture where ancient ways of leadership and spirituality persist as a Perfect world, rather than our real history where technology advancements is often criticized as eroding cultures and spiritual belief systems What would that Utopia look like and how do we advance them in isolation ... an easy plot device to create that world is to give them technology from outer space. Wakanda is a Utopia: Abundance-for-all with no real need for even a monetary system. It's not a stretch to imagine such a world defines Survival of the Fittest differently than us. Bottomline: If you don't find it fascinating that a Utopian civilization being gifted technology from outer space would remain very conservative to social/spiritual change and still maintain their original rites of succession in isolation from the outside world, embracing it to ensure Strength and Honor retain their importance in deciding truth, rather than succession based upon cunning political savvy,,,that's fine, but I just reject the implication that the Utopian idea is flawed.
Right, many people would differ with you on that point. Focusing only on "merit" is the kind of thing that people from the dominant and elite demographic would say. Your definition of "merit" is entwined with your cultural values. In the end, the only real measure of "special" is a public opinion poll or sales receipts, both doing exceedingly well. Further, using your logic regarding "merit", Jackie Robinson is nothing more than a pretty good baseball player. Sure he won MVP a couple times, but there was also a few other aspects of his career. Do you think James Harden will win the Congressional Gold Medal this year? Not to get all, D&D on ya, but race matters. I'll leave it at that. Not gonna get into a back/forth on this in Hangout.
LOL. Like you said, this isn't the D&D, so I can't really respond to this but when you feel the need to use quotation marks when talking about something like merit.....well let's just say that's a bad thing, no matter what demographic you are from. I think if they decided to go the route of saying that they were gifted alien technology or whatever, it would have solved the problem. Instead you are to believe that they merely advanced more quickly than every other culture due to the availability of a type of metal that is superior to nearly all other metals on earth. In short, I was looking for that plot device to explain something that didn't make sense, and that plot device never emerged. It was just random people + Vibranium = inventing cloaking technology and space ships. Had they been given the tech by an alien species or whatever, that would have solved the problem and it would have worked.
Nope, they have a hereditary monarchy based around magic. Odin was king because he was the most powerful god and he had the Odin force, the most powerful magic in existence. Thor eventually inherited the Odinforce and became the king after Odin died.....it was then called the Thor force. When you have stuff like magic that is kind of ridiculous, then you can have a backwards form of government like a hereditary monarchy without a problem.
I was referencing your use of the word merit, hence the quotation. I doubt this movie will go down as one of the greatest movies ever made but many consider it ground breaking ...in the one category that you dismissed as relevant. lol.
So, instant advancement via alien technology transfer would have sufficed for you wrt why they were so "primitive" in their ways still. We sit down to the movie with an immediate description of a Utopian culture. You focused on how it's different and doesn't make sense to our history....I focused on how Utopias in Sci Fi are usually described in a state of unchanging, cultural perfection, so I expected ancient ways to persist...with little to no change. Critiquing the believability of Sci-Fi when it is using a common plot-line is something I don't usually do. From that movie beginning, I expected ancient world ways (shaman spiritualism, Strength and Honor) to persist in harmony with technology, and was pleased. Technology Changes vs Tradition is a classic conflict in Sci Fi, because it is hard to keep them in balance. I think Wakanda is a great allegory of success wrt our obsession with that conflict in fiction and history. As you point out, while fine details of how Wakanda went from Point A to Point X in technology advancements was lacking, I didn't find it essential, but rather something that would be fun to see in small doses. I fully expected this fiction to keep most of their culture and spiritual belief systems frozen at Point A throughout it's history....and was greatly please with that.
Pretty much, yeah. Primitive isolated societies don't develop advanced technology on their own. If they were given the technology then it would solve that problem. I guess we just watch movies slightly differently. For me when you are going to do something impossible, I need it addressed. A good example of this is how I considered Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon unwatchably stupid because they never gave me a satisfactory reason why people could all of a sudden fly....while at the same time I had no problem whatsoever with the crazy nonsense in The One because they gave me a reason for it.
no breh, never had access to marvel/dc comics as a kid v_v had various japanese comics doe, those are everywhere. i don't lift either.
Wait ... Didn't they establish that they discovered the Vibranium before other primitive civs even existed, in-line with man being in Africa first? So they had millennia of advancements with an unfair resource advantage before early Asia, Europe and Americas were even in their bronze ages. If that's the case, then we probably read Sci Fi novels differently too. What do you mean by impossible? Can't we believe species on another planet could be more advanced than Western Civilization with a multi-millennia headstart and Vibranium? The story just gives a culture on Earth the Vibranium, instead. The Sci-Fi believability of that is not like flying people in Crouching Tiger. (btw: I was initially referring to your comment about their primitive ways still persisting after a multi-millennia worth of development. I answered that for you, right?)
It's just a strong metal, having a strong metal doesn't equal advanced technology. Well sure, but we're not talking about species on another planet, we're talking about a country full of humans on earth, as such they should be viewed as humans on earth and humans on earth don't develop advanced technology with primitive governments and extreme isolationism, those are 2 known barriers to developing advanced technology when it comes to humans on earth. I'm perfectly willing to believe that it works different for other species on different planets. As to the previous point about primitive ways still persisting, my only problem with it is that it's a known barrier to developing an advanced society and the movie didn't give me a reason why that isn't the case for Wakanda when it is for every other group of humans and "Because vibranium" is a MUCH worse version of "Becuase the speed force"
Watching people dance around the elements of the stories when they want to say: WHAT ARE THOSE!!! people doing with advance technology becuase . .. well they are those people!!! Rocket River For the Record. . .Vibrainium is not a 'strong' metal as much as it is a metal that 'defies' the laws of physics so yes you can have advance tech when you study a metal that defies the laws of physics of thousands of years
One thing I'll say about vibranium is that it seems almost too OP. It needs defined characteristics, but the movie gave me the impression that it is a miracle element for any application. That makes it too easy for the writers to use vibranium as a magical cop-out.
