1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

It is A Good Thing that We Have a Sharp Divide Between Blue and Red States

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Nov 8, 2004.

  1. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    17,790
    Likes Received:
    3,395
    Keeping the Divide Sharp
    Quasi-random thoughts on the day after the day after the day after:
    Denizens of Blue State Nation--you know who you are--should not let Bush get away with his phony I'm-going-to-reach-out rhetoric. Nor should they be swayed by the time-to-heal puffery being put forward by members of the punditocracy.

    I was a guest on NPR's Diane Rehm Show this morning and made the case that it is a good thing that the country is so divided. Those of you who have been reading this blog are familiar with this argument. (Those of you who are not can scroll below and traipse through the recent items.) In response to my pro-divide declaration, Stephen Hayes of The Weekly Standard-who wrote a book claiming that Saddam Hussein was fully in bed and entangled under the sheets with Osama bin Laden (even though the 9/11 commission and the CIA found no evidence of this)--said that he was delighted to hear such honesty from a member of the Bush opposition. But when I noted that it was disingenuous of Bush to claim to be interested in earning the trust of Kerry voters after he ran a divisive campaign, Hayes shot back that Kerry had been as nasty in return (by accusing Bush of lying the country into war) and that Kerry supports had characterized Bush as a "Nazi-loving idiot." Two points, I retorted. First, neither the Kerry campaign not any responsible Bush critic accused Bush of affection for Adolph. Second, it was Bush who was running for reelection as the president of the United States. As the president of all Americans, he had a greater obligation to raise--or attempt to raise--the standards of political discourse in America. After all, didn't he promise in 2000 to improve the "tone" in Washington? Yet he mocked and derided Kerry by mischaracterizing Kerry's positions and hurling false charges at him (for instance, stating that Kerry's health care plan called for a "government takeover" of the medical establishment).

    Let's be clear and plain about the campaign, the vote count, and all else. There are profound differences between Blue Staters and Red Staters, and this stuff is worth fighting over. Here's a small example. According to Newsweek, Bill Clinton "urged" Kerry to "back local bans on gay marriage" to draw support in red states. Kerry "respectfully listened, then told his aides, 'I'm not going to ever do that." Bully for Kerry. Is this the flip-flopper that Bush decried? Not at all. Yet on the radio today, Hayes continued to whip Kerry for voting for the Iraq war and then voting against it. You know the rest. But when Kerry voted to grant Bush the authority to launch military action when Bush deemed best, he clearly explained that he was doing so for tactical reasons--in order to provide Bush with the ability to threaten Saddam Hussein--and that he expected Bush would not strike Iraq until weapons inspections had been pursued as far as possible. Kerry (and others) miscalculated by giving Bush this power. But there is nothing inconsistent between his vote and his criticism of the war that Bush did order (after not pursuing inspections seriously). Even after the votes are counted, the right hangs on to--and promotes--this canard.

    Back to gay marriage. The insta-analysis was that the 22 percent of the voters who (according to the flawed exit polls) cited "moral values" as their top concern in choosing a candidates made the crucial difference. That may be true. But this does not mean that one-fifth of the electorate are Christian evangelicals who care more about what Bob and Bob are doing in the privacy of their own home than they care about economic trends that affect them directly. After the last election, Karl Rove said that he believed that 4 million or so Christian evangelicals did not turn up at the polls for Bush. Rove and Ralph Reed worked damn hard this time to get them there. And the anti-gay marriage initiatives in Ohio and elsewhere were their primary tool, but not the only one. Their efforts appear to have paid off, with Bush collecting about 4 million more votes. Are these 4 million the same as Rove's missing 4 million? Perhaps. That ain't good news for the Democrats. But it's better--or less discouraging--news than the notion that there are 24 million voters out there who worry first and foremost about stifling gay rights. (A note to those conservative voters who do obsess about gay marriage: the exit polls show the electorate is only 3 or 4 percent gay and lesbian. How many of these people are looking to get hitched? By the numbers, it's a small "problem.")

    By the way, check out this piece in The Washington Post on a middle class but social con family in Sheffield, Ohio, that is overjoyed that Bush triumphed. Daddy lost his $55,000-a-year job and now pulls in $35,000 by working at a car rental counter and delivering pizzas. Still, he and Mommy care more about what she calls "moral absolutes"--such as abortion and gay marriage. The Dems can write off these people. They have the right to put their religious beliefs (that is, their disgust with two men copulating) ahead of their economic concerns. It's a free country (so to speak). No amount of economic populism is going to reach them. And there's no way the Democrats are going to be able to convince such folks that they are on the same "values" wavelength. Even if Kerry had taken Clinton's opportunistic advice, he would not have won over such voters. They would have seen through the ruse in a nanosecond. The Democrats have to find other voters.

    The Blue State Nation does not exist in the shadow of fundamentalist Christians. It has nearly as many citizens as Red State Nation (if you only count voters). It needs to keep the divide sharp and not allow the election results to wash away the legitimate reasons for that divide.


    link
     
  2. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    20,464
    Likes Received:
    488
    I'm thinking that these should perhaps be called Blue Metro Areas not Blue States...
     
  3. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    56,814
    Likes Received:
    39,127
    Travis County is blue, in a sea of red, and I couldn't be prouder. That's a huge reason why we moved here 24 years ago, and it's nice to know that it's still the most liberal area of Texas.

    They tried to redistrict Lloyd Doggett out of the US Congress, but he carried his gerrymandered district with over 60% of the vote. Latinos in the Valley decided they would rather have an experienced white Democrat represent them than an inexperienced Latino Republican... hell, any Republican! Doggett got about 84% of the vote in Travis County, if I'm remembering right. His old district, Austin's 10th district, was gerrymandered all the way to the Houston suburbs. Doggett's went from 6th street in Austin, to the Mexican border.



    Keep D&D Civil!!
     
  4. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    20,464
    Likes Received:
    488
    Deckard: thanks for the exceptions which, of course, prove the rule!

    Can you believe that I lived in Austin in 1974-75...
     
  5. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    56,814
    Likes Received:
    39,127
    You never know... we may have bumped into each other. :) I went to Austin and Lake Travis (mostly Paleface) all the time from the late '60's until we moved there. I wish it hadn't changed so much, but it's still a great place to live. 1974 was when I met my wife. I remember the first time I took her to a huge Paleface party with my friends. But that's another story. :D




    Keep D&D Civil!!
     
  6. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    20,464
    Likes Received:
    488
    Is Paleface another lake or just an enclave for powerful white Texans?

    :D

    About all I remember is Hippie Hollow...
     
  7. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    56,814
    Likes Received:
    39,127
    Think Hippie Hollow, but 100 times better, at least back then. It's where the Pedernales River runs into Travis. The part of the park along the river (which is backed up, and really part of the lake) is a long series of coves. At the end of the peninsula, the land slopes down and families generally go there. We had a couple of coves we used, depending on whether someone had taken one or the other, and skinny-dipped to our heart's content. It was very "rough" back then... now, they charge admission, and some politico's relative got a contract to install concrete picnic tables, and there seem to be hundreds of them, in places where folks don't even go.

    As for the enclave of powerful Texans? Willy Nelson has his place out there, with his private golf course, and has for years. That's my kind of powerful white Texan! :cool:



    Keep D&D Civil!!
     
  8. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    20,464
    Likes Received:
    488
    Ah, the allure of the concrete picnic table... LOL!!!
     
  9. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    18,452
    Likes Received:
    116
    Actually....ummm.....NO!

    :D
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now