There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006 and before and after that Hamas has killed political opponents. I agree Hamas is fighting an assymetric struggle and I don't believe Israel is necessarily morally superior in this struggle. That said to consider that the only difference between Hamas and US is military strength is completely offbase. Consider in 2007 Hamas militants forcibly drove the PA out of Gaza. For how bad the last years has been Jan. 6th insurrectionists never got close to driving the Democrats out of office. I fully believe the Palestinians deserve a state and they deserve a functioning government. Hamas isn't going to get them either of those. If anything Hamas is leading to more death and suffering of Palestinians.
Again if you are going equate the US with an organization that frequently has killed internal political opponents. That uses it's own civilians as human shields and celebrates the deaths of not just it's own fighters but it's civilians there probably isn't much to discuss. I agree we need to step out of our bubbles but that doesn't mean just stepping into someone else's.
This is another example of how Omar is more interested in throwing rhetorical bombs than she is in governing. One of the Reps who signed that letter criticizing her is Dean Philips a Democrat representing MN 3rd District next door. Right now MN is facing many issues and her district more than others. Crime is very up. Businesses are leaving Minneapolis downtown. Vaccinations have been good in MN overall but there are stubborn pockets including among minority communities in Minneapolis where vaccinations are lagging. There have been anti-violence protests the last few weeks as 5 children ranging in age from 6-18 have been killed in her district in random gun violence and Omar has said or done very little about those.
It is puzzling for her to include the US, but certainly Israel has committed atrocities even just recently, including firing upon children. Trump made his statement in defense of Russia, Omar wasn't defending Hamas here. It wasn't a very wise statement from Omar, but I disagree that it was the same as Trump's defense of Russia by saying we kill people too.
Again, the US has killed far more civilians than Hamas. They are far more effective in that manner. Your list of transgressions ignores context. Pack humans in a sardine can of an urban ghetto where those people don't have control of their airspace, water supply, electrical grid, traded goods at the border, freedom of movement while having 30 minute notice to evacuate their homes before it being turned to rubble, of course an entity will form that will use whatever inefficient means they have to retaliate. Population density in Gaza also means that "using civilians as human shields" would just be a natural occurance that doesn't require actual intent of using civilians as human shields. Ya, the entity with far less military strength uses more unconventional means. And still Israel is far more efficient at killing civilians. We value the life of our own more than the other hence why many of us can justify the far more signficant number of civilian deaths we caused while ironically calling others terrorist originations. So we tap dance around with excuses like this human shields nonsense. Israel bombs communication networks for Hamas in Gaza and when civilian casualties occur the "human shield" excuse comes forth. Yet the IDF has military infrastructure and communication towers in the middle of dense population centers like Tel Aviv so I'm sure if Hamas successfully hits those places and kills some civilians in the process you would accept Hamas' excuse that IDF used Israeli citizens as human shields.
Trump didn't make that statement really in defense of Russia bit more so the defense of Putin himself and allegedly because Putin has some form of influence over him. So ya, a major difference between Omar's statement and Trump's.
I'm not denying that numerically the US military and the IDF have killed more. I'm also not denying the nature of warfare in a place like Gaza. For that matter I don't believe there is any such thing as a clean war and civilian casualties are inevitable. That doesn't excuse Hamas and as much as you might think some of us are tap dancing I think you are tap dancing around the nature of Hamas. Yes in a dense urban environment like Gaza any conflicts will result in a lot of civilian deaths. Hamas though doesn't go out of the way trying to avoid those deaths they deliberately go out of their way to put civilians and others in danger. For that matter they don't do so just from IDF strikes but also because they are launching from dense civilian areas some of their rockets have ended up killing people in Gaza. Again consider too how Hamas has treated political opponents or those who haven't agreed with their particular religious view. I agree the IDF has killed disproportionately, engaged in collective punishment, while seizing lands and resources that could've built a Palestinian state. That doesn't make Hamas good guys. This is a debate that should be more fitting for one of the Isreal v Palestinian threads.
Omar apologizes, sort of. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/10/1005...ocrats-say-she-equated-u-s-israel-with-terror Omar Is Forced To Clarify After Democrats Say She Equated U.S., Israel With Terrorists Rep. Ilhan Omar issued a statement clarifying comments she made earlier this week that appeared to compare the United States and Israel to Hamas and the Taliban, prompting criticism from both sides of the aisle and from Democratic leadership. The backlash unfolded when the Minnesota Democrat tweeted a video of her question to Secretary of State Antony Blinken during a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing. Her caption on the tweet read: "We have seen unthinkable atrocities committed by the U.S., Hamas, Israel, Afghanistan, and the Taliban. I asked @SecBlinken where people are supposed to go for justice." A group of 12 Democrats, led by Illinois Rep. Brad Schneider, denounced Omar's comments in a joint statement late Wednesday. "Equating the United States and Israel to Hamas and the Taliban is as offensive as it is misguided," the lawmakers said, asking Omar to clarify her remarks. "Ignoring the differences between democracies governed by the rule of law and contemptible organizations that engage in terrorism at best discredits one's intended argument and at worst reflects deep-seated prejudice," they said. "The United States and Israel are imperfect and, like all democracies, at times deserving of critique, but false equivalencies give cover to terrorist groups." Omar first responded by criticizing her colleagues for releasing a statement instead of speaking to her directly and saying it included "Islamophobic tropes." She did, however, go on to provide a clarification on her remarks, claiming they were misinterpreted. "To be clear: the conversation was about accountability for specific incidents regarding those ICC cases, not a moral comparison between Hamas and the Taliban and the U.S. and Israel," she wrote in a press release. She added: "I was in no way equating terrorist organizations with democratic countries with well-established judicial systems." The six-person Democratic leadership team, which includes House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, issued a rare joint statement following Omar's statement, writing they "welcome [Omar's] clarification." "Legitimate criticism of the policies of both the United States and Israel is protected by the values of free speech and democratic debate. And indeed, such criticism is essential to the strength and health of our democracies," their statement read. "But drawing false equivalencies between democracies like the U.S. and Israel and groups that engage in terrorism like Hamas and the Taliban foments prejudice and undermines progress toward a future of peace and security for all." Omar's original tweet renewed calls by various Republican lawmakers to remove her from the House Foreign Affairs Committee. This week's backlash echoes criticism Omar sustained during her first term, when a series of comments were rebuked by both parties as being antisemitic, for which she ultimately issued an apology.
She added: "I was in no way equating terrorist organizations with democratic countries with well-established judicial systems." good to know
She is fortunate to be in a non-competitive district (D+26). Her rhetoric probably plays quite well in Little Mogadishu though.
When Trump said this his intent was to desensitize and normalize like any autocrat would want to. I take Omar’s statement as one designed to make people upset that we are in the same boat in the maybe ways but in a way that actually pushes us to be better. Not saying she’s right but intent does matter in context. As I’ve said before about her and Thalib… there’s a difference between activism and leadership. Both have failed at times to see the difference where I think AOC has showed the maturation much better than those two.
I don't think anyone defends hamas. They haven't had an election in 12 years. They are not a good actor. does that mean to kill the populace? Do you agree with us politics? Depending on where you stand the last 8 years saw you strictly against the president one way or another. Doesn't always represent the populace. Now take it in a place likeGaza that is an open air prison. They've lived their for generations, so imagine you're at the house your grandpa grew up wiht, its the only home you knew youre father knew. They aren't allowed to leave gaza without check points, they don't control their own water supply, likewise israel controls their electric as well, go try to be sufficient and build solar...IDF has torn it down. Want medicine? that also is blocked often because any goods including medicine is blocked or goes through israel. Meanwhile moer and more schools and hopsitals continue to be toppled and thrown down. They say they are 'hiding behind citizens', but lets put a hostage situation if a rightful criminal is holding hostage a family kids or whoever, do the officers or anyone shoot them all and say, welp the guy using the children as a shield so we screamed at em to move but ah well had to kill em all. Or if two massive high rises had some window shooting outsomthing, do you demolish all the fammileis in there and their residents? There are reasons there are war crimes nad rules when lets face its all terrible. Likewise by the way, the precedent set by israel sadly is being used by people like Saudi in Yemen, Myanamr against Rhongiya, we saw China with Hong Kong. Call people terrorist and get a blank check to 'defend yourself' Heck i think we did that in iraq, a place that had nothing to do with 9/11... And then the other issue, these gaza people who have had their communities **** on, families and hcildren killed now are being told stop fighting back when they are just in a desperate wild west with all their livelihood being torn down. Have you seen the legal process for israel's settlements and the 'legality of it'? : They will take your house, goto court say it is needed to be evacuated bc it is of historical or military purpose. they win in the courts then some time later they begin to pay or settlements, by the way, you can look this up. Israel often charged the people they displace for demolition https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...-demolition-of-unrecognized-village-1.9326988 Likewise journalism is underheavy scrutiny and control, similar to korea, india, myanmar. They are even using the same stuffhttps://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...m-selling-spy-tech-to-saudia-arabia-1.9884403 https://cpj.org/2021/06/cpj-calls-o...de-evidence-relating-to-news-outlet-bombings/ This isn't an indicment on the Iraeli people or country as a whole any more than disagreeing that chinese spraying down hong kong free speech protestors is an indicment on israeli people. its leadership. Thats the issue with Netanyahu. Israel is a great country, strong story, amazing people, but is the leadership serving their purpose or utilizing fear to keep his power? Remember by his own former staff he is indicted in his own country's courts or corruption, he ha a son who brags about his dad giving billions of deals to sell and then also taking his percentage when people try to do even charity in israel. Now the new guy may not be any better, apart of the settlement hard right some of them also believe its fine to kill palestinian kids bc they will grow up to be terrorist is the exact quote. But at least change from the consolidation of unchecked power from netanyahu might be a step to rearrange this prepetual issues that obviously aren't just going to be solved with someone new, but won't be as much held back with someone with the incentive to keep power more than get changes done. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...occupation-freedom-we-want-to-live-in-freedom
But neither Omar or I are staying Hamas are good guys. None of us are. We can't just causally dismiss that Israel and the US have killed far more civilians than Hamas. It's the root cause of these terror organizations springing up. For every civilian killed, that creates a web of easily propagandized humans to join a violent cause. We can't just casually dismiss that with "ya but Hamas are terrorists".
I guess the difference in your argument is @rocketsjudoka is saying that yes while Israel and the US do kill more women and Children than Hamas and the Taliban, they do it with that not as the intention but as acceptable collateral damage to a separate objective, where to Hamas and the Taliban, that is the target women and children to achieve their objective and thus that makes them worse. You can make a case either way.
Sure I get that but my point is what is the end result of both. The US and Israel being more effective at killing civilians regardless of intent results in more lasting damage than what Hamas has done and ironically creates the very problem that those civilians died for which is to "stop terrorism" because all we've accomplished is create a rational reason for these people to join these originations because of their rage. Also it shows a lower value of life towards one group of civilians compared to another. I hope everyone here can see how inherently western media values Israeli citizen lives over Palestinian Arabs. We brush off civilian casualties with "that wasn't our intent" and I believe that is a sorry excuse. In a more open society that has more self-awareness, people like Ilhan making these statements would be welcomed and well needed to shake us out of our bubble but that's not how our society works. We are always going to percieve ourselves as the protagonist where any autrocities we commit are brushed off with "it was merely an accident" and because of that any statement that is meant to shake us out of our bubble is going to marred as a support for terrorists rather than merely an objective look at the damage our country along with our allies have done to various regions of the planet. I mean has Hamas ever done a thing as atrocious as destabilizing entire nations like Iraq into a bloodbath civil war that results in hundreds of thousands of deaths? Has Hamas ever dropped nuclear weapons on a major city full of civilians? She is absolutely correct that we need to scrutinize our autrocities as much as we love pointing out autrocities committed by Hamas.
for what it's worth you might take a look at 'the doctrine of double effect.' Originally framed in terms of the abortion debate, it has also been discussed in just war contexts
Sure, but it wasn't articulated well and the thing about cancel culture and censorship - it only applies to the right. When you censor the left, that's considered ok.
