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I believe in God and that ALL go (eventually) to Heaven. Would you like that outcome?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by K9Texan, Mar 17, 2024.

  1. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    Them too and probably every animal that has ever lived. They are ALL part of God's creation.
     
  2. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    That's a question for our creator. From reading the Bible I have gleaned that our lives here are for the purpose of educating, edifying, purifying, and preparing us for life in his kingdom. Obviously, our lives here are a part of God's plan and that there is a purpose to our starting here rather than on Heaven.
     
  3. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    It's not entirely clear as to who exactly wrote that poem. At the time Israelis were being held captive in Babylonia. Maybe this poem could be analogous to Jews in Auschwitz writing about what they would like to do to the infant offspring of SS soldiers, some of whom purportedly smashed Jewish infants against walls for fun. Context is everything.
     
  4. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    I don't know why you are an atheist other than that the Bible says that nobody can believe in Jesus unless God permits them to believe.

    God has even excluded many (but not all) of his "chosen people" from believing in Jesus - for now.

    The Apostle Paul wrote to the fledgling church in Rome and one of things that he told was NOT to think highly of themselves for being believers and that God had "hardened" Israel "until" the FULLNESS of the "gentiles" has come in.

    Romans 11:25
    25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    God does not permit all to believe just yet. Why? My guess is that if he removes the veil (so to speak) so that all people can believe NOW, that our Earthly lesson will be incomplete.

    In Revelation 20 we learn that Satan will be imprisoned for 1,000 years but then he will be released.

    Revelation 20:1-3
    Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

    So why does God release Satan back into the world? My guess is that our Earthly education will be INCOMPLETE if Satan is not released.

    Revelation also tells us that Satan will be thrown into the "Lake of Fire" (which isn't what most of us were taught).

    Revelation 20:10
    King James Version

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
     
  5. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    Mainstream Christianity believes, and teaches, that the "Lake of Fire" (LOF) is a literal lake of fire and that wicked people are thrown into it for the sole purpose of torturous punishment that is never ending. However, they are deeply mistaken.

    The LOF is a metaphor for the crucible that a metallurgist of that era would use to purify metal. They would melt the metal and add sulphur which would then separate the impurities into dross that they could remove in order to finish the purification process.

    That is the LOF referenced in the Bible.

    Those who look to Jesus purify themselves.

    1 John 3:3
    And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

    We can and should glean the unwritten part of this verse - EVERYBODY gets purified! Some of us will be purified the nice and easy way while others will go to the "crucible" to be purified. The Bible tells us that the latter is a very unpleasant experience and that we should strive to avoid it by looking to Christ and doing his will here on Earth.
     
  6. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    In addition to sulphur, you'll also read words such as "brimstone" and "torment" when describing the LOF. Brimstone is another word for sulphur. Torment comes from the Greek word "Basanos" and its meaning is different than our modern definition of "torment". Basanos means to test. I borrowed the following from a source that I have long since forgotten.

    Basanos speaks about a touchstone. A touchstone is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of silver and gold. The person would rub the metal on the stone and the color of the streak produced would show what it is. However, this word also means when someone is tortured. That’s because there is a force exerted in torturing someone for them to expose the truth.

    This word is used of physical diseases (Matthew 4:24) and those in hell after death (Luke 16:23).

    “And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”

    – Luke 16:23
     
  7. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    We see God using sulfur in Genesis.

    Genesis 19:24
    Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
     
  8. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    As a side note regarding Sodom and Gomorrha, we again see an incorrect translation made by the authors of the King James Bible.

    Jude 7:1 King James Version
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Archeologists have claimed to have located the ruins of Sodom next to or even beneath the Dead Sea. Needless to say, there is nothing there that is burning, let alone burning for "eternity".

    Here is a better translation:

    Jude 1:7 CLNT
    7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian.

    Here is a link that goes into an exhaustive explanation of the Koine Greek word "eonian" and its modern, English, counterpart "eon". Needless to say, it doesn't mean "forever".

    http://find-truth.com/articles/ultimate/01.html
     
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  9. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    It's helpful for us to understand that God is a refiner or even a "metallurgist". Of course, God isn't refining metal, he is refining us!

    Now I'm going to share a plethora of verses from the Bible that reference things relating to refining. I strongly encourage you to read them all because I believe that doing so will enhance your understanding of how God operates.

    Malachi 3:2-3 esv

    But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.



    1 John 3:3 esv

    And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.



    Mark 9:49

    For everyone will be salted with fire.



    Hebrews 1:3 ESV

    He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,



    Zechariah 13:9

    And I will put this third into the fire,
    and refine them as one refines silver,
    and test them as gold is tested.
    They will call upon my name,
    and I will answer them.
    I will say, ‘They are my people’;
    and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”



    1 Peter 1:7 esv

    So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.



    Isaiah 1:25 esv

    I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy.



    Isaiah 48:10 esv

    Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction



    Psalm 66:10 esv

    For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.



    Proverbs 17:3 esv

    The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.



    Job 23:10 esv

    But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.



    Jeremiah 9:7 esv

    Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: “Behold, I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do, because of my people?



    Jeremiah 6:29 esv

    The bellows blow fiercely; the lead is consumed by the fire; in vain the refining goes on, for the wicked are not removed.



    Proverbs 25:4 esv

    Take away the dross from the silver, and the smith has material for a vessel



    Revelation 19:20 YLT

    and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast -- the two -- to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone



    2 Corinthians 3:18 esv

    And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.



    Revelation 20:10 YLT

    and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.



    Revelation 3:18 esv

    I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.



    1 Peter 5:10 esv

    And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.



    Titus 2:14 esv

    Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.



    Ezekiel 22:18-22 esv

    Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord; I have poured out my wrath upon you.”

    (Note: The Book of Ezekiel was written five or six hundred years before Christ appeared. Again, notice how various authors of scripture all say the same things. That is because of God!)



    Psalm 12:6 esv

    The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.



    Revelation 14:10 esv

    He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
     
  10. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    To summarize what I have shared this morning, God is a refiner, the Bible is filled with references to refining, and the "Lake of Fire" is just a metaphor that is used to describe the refining process for those that don't go to Jesus while on Earth.

    More later. :)
     
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  11. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    If to live is to suffer, then death is salvation.

    On a large enough timescale, we are already dead anyway.
     
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  12. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    Amen. I will add that neither Jesus nor his apostles EVER engaged in political discussion or activism. I will also add that it was the religious leaders of Israel that Jesus most despised. They eventually compelled the Romans to execute Jesus.

    As for attending church, it's a good way to meet fellow Christians and perspective future spouses. Some congregations do Godly things for their communities. I think it's fine to fellowship with Godly people. However, there is also a saying that says "If you want to learn false doctrines, go to church". Lol.
     
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  13. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    Life is hard. It is full of suffering. I wish God would take me now, but I guess God has other plans.
     
  14. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    That's nice. Hopefully, there are spaces for 10000000000^1000000000 of beings :)
     
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  15. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    I heard this somewhere, but the approach is a bit different: recognizing the suffering and its root is the start of salvation.
     
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  16. Xopher

    Xopher Member

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    You ignored the entire point of my post. Got it.
     
  17. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    Not intentionally my brother. I'll go back and try again.
     
  18. K9Texan

    K9Texan Member
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    God is working on you my friend! He is giving you exactly what you need in preparation for his Kingdom and if you seek God now he will bless you with faith, according to what Jesus said! As for the rest of your post I can only tell you that I believe that God is all loving and all powerful.

    Matthew 7:7-8
    Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
     
  19. Xopher

    Xopher Member

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    But is he all knowing? Why would you create someone already knowing what would happen and condemn them to Hell before their creation?
     
  20. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Yep it's certainly complicated. My parents who I never really forgave completely for putting me through what they did earlier in my life, also attend a church now that does some great work at homeless shelters in Houston. There is well meaning and positive intent all throughout the American Christian extended community. In America though with the Evangelical Christian Nationalist movement, the fish rots from the head. Many of these televangelist figureheads don't even hide it anymore and openly flaunt their power of influence in the movement which is now basically married to MAGA.

    One of the big misconceptions in Christianity is this idea of "Taking the Lord's Name in Vain" which in the Evangelical Church is boiled down to literally voicing the phrase "God Damnit" or using profanity akin to that saying that is cursing at God.

    However what the Bible in context is actually speaking more at figures that use God's name or as we now know as Christianity to manipulate followers of the religion for their own personal or political benefit. What these Jerry Followill Jr. types are doing over the past 10 years + attaching themselves and promoting to their church someone who is openly using antichrist rhetoric is downright sickening, and they are the ones who are essentially destroying the religion of Christianity.... aka Taking the Lord's Name in Vain.

    All of the good that churches do at the ground level is muddied by what is happening at the top, and the silence to speak out against what is happening at the top which is... to be blunt... alignment with an antichrist like figure.... hurts everyone's credibility in the Church, and contributes to it's demise at least here in the US.

    What is happening at the top is just straight up WRONG, and is everything John warned about in the final book of the Bible when he was referencing his predictions about Emperor Nero.
     
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