I am for it if the test is of reasonable difficulty. There should be a minimal requirement for the kids and teachers in school. I am actually with W in this account.
Reading comprehension? How about this? Your words: "very few were actually GT." Your argument was the GT students in public school can not compete with students in private school. Now you are admitting they are not really GT. Did you not change thing around? If you now want to make a case that you know 2 kids, your own, who could not compete with students in private school, then go ahead and say so. Don't go and draw conclusion for all GT kids. I know plenty who would do very well against any private school kids. "Private school are not for high achieving students but there are testing to get into." Try that in public school and see the result. "They do require money to get into ..." The only thing that YOU prove here is that private school indeed starts with a more selective group of students. All of this argument end up with the smarter kids will do well no matter where they are. Meaning: Public school or Private school do not matter. That is your word. You jumped to the wrong conclusion from bad data, bad arguments. The TAKS test is never the end all, be all test. The TAKS is not what drive students away. It is not designed to leave anyone behind. When will you stop giving it your own meaning to it. It is simply a standardized test so you have a basis of comparison among different classes, different teachers, different school, different district ... You are wrong if you think the TAKs is what stop most of these students from moving on. There may be a few cases for various reasons but for the most part, if they do not pass the test, the chance of them succeeding is pretty low. On the contrary, removing the TAKs altogether will leave you with many, many students who are not prepared for higher education. Some more might go to college but they will fail miserably, because guess what, there are tests in college too. Unless of course you send them to school where the professor will hand them diploma without any tests, without them having to know anything.
Somehow you have fallen way off track, so I will take them 1 by 1 here. My kids were in GT classes with the GT curriculum. They were 2 of the 7 in their grades combined who actually earned the right to be in these classes. The rest were the next best kids on the test that they took in to fill the classes so they could have a GT program. At no point have I said anything other than this. You are now simply twisting words to fit your argument. On if a GT student can compete with a private school student, that is obviously a case by case basis. There are obviously some extremely smart kids in public schools and some of the lower end learning ability kids in private schools. It is ridiculous to think anything different. I am not comparing the kids, but the curriculum. They are not going to go from Public school GT classes and step into a private schools curriculum and be up to par. Are they up to speed with the private schools? Not even close, but you can keep telling yourself they are to make yourself feel better. Obviously if you have GT kids who are in the public schooling versus GT kids in the private schooling. The ones in the private school are far more advanced. Same at the lower end. The slower learning children in a private school will be lightyears ahead of the ones in public school. You are right kids can come from any background and be successful. It doesn't change the fact that you are far more likely to do so when given the proper schooling. All the numbers you can find will back this up. It is not even close. Kids are more likely to quit when faced with adversity than they are when they think they can breeze through something. this shouldn't be rocket science. Again, if your argument is anyone can catch up and make it happen, then you are right. That is a crappy outlook, though. I would rather all children be given equal opportunity, and not left behind. You are taking the Taks test driving kids away way too literally. Although it does drive many away just by itself. The problem with Taks test is the whole school systen has been changed to accommodate the test. They do not teach critical thinking or anything outside of the box now. The entire curriculum is designed around being able to pass this test. They are being groomed to pass this one test for 2 years, and not learning much else. This is how all public school children are getting left behind. And to your standardized test for different teachers, students, districts and so on. That is the problem with it. Not everyone is the same or under the same circumstances. There are many districts where the they will never meet the standard. It is nobodies fault. It just is what it is. There are also many other districts where the test is a joke and they all smoke it. They only way you can have a standardized test is to have standardized people, and that is never going to happen. So, this whole standardized test is doomed from the start as it is inherantly unfair. To your last point, We seem to be at a disconnect here. I am not saying kids shouldn't be able to pass test or even take them. I am saying designing your school system around 1 and making everyones lives depend on it is assinine. It has totally destroyed the public school system. There are things called the SAT and ACT that kids have to pass to get into college. That will never change, so that kills your argument about the whole college thing. For those that can't pass them there are the juco's and community colleges with developemental courses to do the job the public school system couldn't do. The Taks is is not helping anyone.
I can go all day long to make my case and I know I won't change your mind. I'd just call BS on this: You start out with saying "if a GT student can compete with a private school student, that is obviously a case by case basis. " and then on the next claim: "GT kids in Private school are better than GT kids in Public school." If you just want to argue curriculum then I'd call BS on that too. You have not seen the requirements for some of the AP classes in Public HS. After taking these classes, you can take the AP exams and get college credits. My friend's daughter earned between a yr and 2 yrs of college credits this way.
And for the record, I used to think just like you. I was completely for the Taks test and thought that if a kid can't pass the test they didn't need to move on. I didn't change my stance until the last few months when seeing the difference after my children got out of that loop and in the new one. I see now how much better off everyone is without that useless unneeded pressure. The teachers are allowed to teach and the kids can actualy learn in a stress free enviroment. My kids are way ahead of where they were when they were smoking the TAKS test. The difference is astronomical.
Now you are just twisting words without the quote and putting in quotes as if I said it, but thats cool. The people can read the post above I know all about AP classes and dual credit classes and whatever else you want to throw at me. My niece and nephew both took advantage of those and got 12-15 hours a piece. That is your senior year of highschool. I run into dual credit kids all the time. That is offered at private schools too. It doesn't change the fact that the curriculum is way behind private schools, though. I will give you that you can seperate kids more at the highschool level and they can start to pull away from the pack in advanced classes. This pulls the 2 curriculums close, But they are still behind the private school kids.
You do not know all about AP classes if you said "that is your senior year of highschool" as if you can only earn college credit in senior year. That makes your understanding of the HS curriculum a little short.
How many kids are earning college credits before senior year of highschool? Seriously? If it happens it is very rare. I don't of any highschool who offer these programs before senior year. They usually want you to take care of your highschool business first. Most seniors are about done and only have a class or two, so they take these programs to get ahead. One more thing. I did not call you on it earlier, but since you are calling me on my knowledge on highschool curriculum. A kid does not earn a year or 2 of college credits in highschool. That would be 35-70 college hours. That is not happenning at any highschool in the nation. Lets at least be realistic here. Kids are not going straight from highschool to working on their bachelors, because they got their associates out of the way in highschool.
Most high schools offer AP classes of one sort or another, and plenty of people take them. I believe every high school in Houston ISD offers AP courses. Plenty of people in my high school took AP classes. I took 8 or 9 AP tests and skipped out of 30-35 college hours worth of college classes. That was 15 years ago - I'm sure there are many more options than that today. And I went to a regular old public high school - not even a magnet school or anything like that.
Sorry - to clarify, I took most of these my junior year, and a few my senior year. While that wasn't necessarily normal at that volume, there were plenty of juniors taking an AP course or two in my school.
Mocoman, I'm not sure you understand the situation. I know Fox News tells you to hate unions. Good teachers and bad teachers will be fired on a random basis. You can have the bad luck of having a bad class. It leads to a lot of gaming the system.
You claim stuffs like the GT kids in private school beat the GT kids in public school and private school curriculum is superior without knowing that? 1) My friend has a daughter in the West side of Houston who earned more than one year of college credits in HS. She is graduating from college this summer after 2 1/2 yrs in college. (she probably took summer classes too) 2) We live in Clear Creek ISD and their curriculum is very advanced too. http://www2.ccisd.net/Departments/StudentSupportServices/CourseSelection.aspx Examples for 9th graders: Page 87, 88, 5 levels of English I, the 3rd level is (Enriched), 4th (PreAP/ GT), 5th level (PreAP/GT/Leadership), Not a college level class though. Page 108, 3 levels of Geography, the last one, "4810 Human Geography (AP/ GT), Gr 9-12, prepares students for the College board Advanced Placement Human Geo Exam. Fulfills req for World Geo course... taught at a college level ... " My daughter is in 9th grade and she is taking this class with many of her friends. I don't know if she will pass the exam but she is carrying an A in the class. She made a 4 yr plan that includes many AP classes, 1 in 8th gr, 1 in 9th, 2 in 11th, 5 in 12th grade. Not to say she will accomplish them all but it's possible. She has many GT friends who are doing some of the things she is. There are many public HS schools in Houston that are ranked higher than ours. I am not boasting, just want to make my point: Public school is not inferior to Private school. It can be very challenging.
I should add that the tests need to be gone over with a fine tooth comb to ensure all students are graded fairly based on what's being assessed. For instance some language arts standards may ask students to classify and categorize things a student would see on a bike ride. Well at 2nd grade in many of the inner city neighborhoods these kids can't ride bikes outside because it isn't safe, they don't have bikes etc. That question is easier for some students than others and it has nothing to do with how well they can classify or categorize which is what they are being assessed on. Another example might talk about things that happen in Spring, Summmer, Winter, Fall, etc. 2nd or 3rd grade Students in Hawaii or Southern California have entirely different concepts or what those different seasons entail. It's often about rain fall or lack of rain fall, but the question answers talk about a traditional North Eastern seasonal change. Again the test isn't fair to all students. There is also a problem in how the California State test is written. The 3rd grade comprehension part of the test requires students to actually read at a 4th grade level, and then gives them fewer questions so that each question actually counts against them more than on the 4th grade test. It's no surprise that scores always dip after 2nd grade and rise again when they are in 4th grade. Fortunately the state has been made aware of this and at some point in the next 5 years it will be changed. But before we start firing teachers based on these tests, the tests need to be changed. They don't need to be made easier, but just give students the same chance at being fairly assessed based on which standards the test is intending to assess the students.
Ding, ding, ding! What a novel idea...to teach kids to think critically. There is sooo much emphasis placed on standardized testing these days that teachers are not teaching kids to think, but merely to remember facts. There's so much pressure to no only do well on these tests, but to get their kids to show genuine growth from one year to the next, that teachers are forced to essentially teach to the test and nothing else. Now let's compound that with a performance based pay system that rewards teachers solely on students' performance on standardized tests using value added analysis that's so incredibly difficult to comprehend only a handful of people can understand all the data behind it. Now let's compound it further by using that same value added analysis to determine whether teachers can be terminated or not. Yes, teachers need to be held accountable, and yes, there are some teachers that have no business being in the profession. But I think there are other ways to weed out those teachers. It's already difficult attracting top talent to the field, especially to lower-performing schools...this will only scare more teachers away. As to teaching students to think critically while learning fundamental skills...yes it can be done...it's called IB.
Well I'm not in administration myself, but I would think Principals could use their existing powers and not renew teaching contracts if that teacher is completely deficient in their abilities. HISD has moved away from lifetime and multiple-year contracts in the past decade to one-year terms. So essentially they wouldn't have to terminate anyone, they could just not renew the contract...I would think. Still, teachers that have been in HISD I think for over a decade are still on lifetime contracts, so that would present a problem. But I'm pretty sure the language in it already allows for the removal of a teacher if they do not perform their duties and meet the expectations set forth upon them. I also think the PDAS system needs to be overhauled...to me it seems like an afterthought...that your abilities as a teacher are appraised based on a couple of 15 minute classroom visits. Maybe more weight should be given to the appraisal system and more aggressive growth plans should be given to teachers who score low. If you factor in student performance on standardized tests, then you need to factor in overall student performance in the classroom as well. And if you factor in student performance on the TAKS test, then it shouldn't really be based on growth, because inevitably a student will hit a ceiling. Again, standardized tests always will have their place. But too much emphasis has been placed on them in recent years. Not to mention there are other mitigating factors that can affect a child's ability to score well on these tests, factors that are beyond a teachers control. They are not at the child's home making sure they complete their daily assignments, they are not there to ensure kids are receiving a stable, nurturing home environment, they can't ensure (outside of school) that kids are receiving nutritious meals and are getting enough exercise. If the teachers have to accept some responsibility, then parents need to as well. Plus, some schools don't have as near the amount of funding they need to properly teach the students.
Being at school, I can safely say that if you took the worst class, and gave them the best teacher in school, even he won't be able to work miracles with that class. On the other hand, I know classes (top divisions) who, when giving a substandard teacher, can still get good grades.
