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Hillary Clinton Clinches Democratic Nomination!

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Deckard, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Deckard, you look like a sore, deeply scared winner who is afraid that such a flawed candidate might lose which must be a weird state to occupy. You still don't get Bernie and many of his supporters. You think it is all about Hillary and Bernie as personalities, the horse race and not the issues. I have explained how Sanders is winning: on social security, minimum wage, health care, regime change wars, Israel/Palestine, Puerto Rico being turned into Greece to satisfy some Wall Street bondholders, perhaps even election finance reform, etc. We hope Sanders can win today in California and regardless of the outcome keep pushing Wall Street Hillary toward policies with a bit of actual boldness or behalf of the folks who don't fund her. These changes might even be what actually causes Hillary to win the election, not her incrementalism and her largely personality oriented attacks against Trump or the daily gotcha type campaigns she is good at.

    We think Bill and Hillary and the whole DLC-Wall Street Dem crew have been overall bad for the majority in this country and bad for the type of Democratic Party ala FDR that we want i.e one that is not so close to the Repubs that tens of millions of working class voters see no difference between the parties.. Hillary's policies and not her gender are why she is the worst of the lesser of two evil choices we have had to make.

    Re, the whole 3 million vote issue. The states where Bernie crushed Hillary in caucuses register as zero votes for him. In addition most of her three million margin was amassed in the Deep South and or New York states where unless flips New York the election will not be decided.

    Many folks hate Hillary not because she is a woman. Many of these people who hate her are independents who may just vote for Trump or stay home. The polls don't lie on her negatives. Make up your theories as to why numerous polls showing Sanders as stronger against Trump are wrong or why 4 to 1 people don't trust her.

    .
     
    #41 glynch, Jun 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  2. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    The polls don't lie. The real polls. The ones where Bernie lost. The ones where Donald will lose, badly, in November.

    But don't worry, in November you'll still be the same insufferable dunderhead you are today, left or right.

    Note to other younger Berniebros - a white guy (named lynch, how awesome) telling black folks in the Deep South that their votes for Hillary shouldn't count is gross and not a good look for anybody.

    Shame shame. Ding Ding

    Shame shame. Ding Ding.
     
  3. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    [Premium Post]
    Oh how fresh, the use of the race card as the auto-default weapon of choice. You know that glynch's reference was not racial in nature, yet you jumped at the chance to play the race card. Not a sign of a strong argument, and perhaps the lowest form of attack possible. Instead of civil discourse, you attack a good man dishonestly. Shame on you.
     
  4. RockFanFirst

    RockFanFirst Member

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    It's not OK in any case, but someone vying for the presidency should be held to a higher standard. It shows a tremendous lack of judgment on her part, and I don't think this is something that a simple "oh, I didn't know any better" or "everyone else is doing it" excuses her from. The ignorance excuse doesn't cut it for me on this...especially when it deals in issues of national security.

    I think you'd agree that we are much more advanced technologically (smartphones and the like) than we were when the previous SOS were in office. I think that opens her email server up for easier access to would-be hackers. It was very, very careless on her part to insist on something that the state department wouldn't approve for her to use in the first place.
     
  5. Rashmon

    Rashmon Contributing Member

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    Yeah, but Trump...
     
  6. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I'm not going to reply to the other jumble of thoughts you have pouring out of your frustrated head as I would only be repeating myself. However, your dismissal of Ms. Clinton's 3 million vote lead is insulting to those who voted for her. Congratulations - you insulted millions. I'm sure you are proud. I'll add something else, glynch, something that puts the lie to your "Deep South, New York! The horror!!" mumbo jumbo. On May 24th, Washington State held a statewide primary election. Here are the results.

    ★ Hillary Clinton Democratic Party 380,760 53%
    Bernie Sanders Democratic Party 338,283 47%

    I'm sure you will dismiss an actual democratic result in that state because Mr. Sanders won the caucuses a couple of months before, but the vote totals are several times larger than the small number involved with the caucus. So 380,760 voters in progressive Washington State should be tossed into the "Deep South! New York!" dumpster, right? After all, they didn't vote for Mr. Sanders. They must be corrupt or disillusioned or demented, right?

    You are becoming a sad, lost creature, glynch. Get a grip on yourself.
     
  7. okierock

    okierock Contributing Member

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    eh, vote for the person who would put the ability to cover her own a$$ above the security of the nation you live in

    I promise you she would be more than happy to sacrifice you and your family for herself... she is that awesome.
     
  8. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    So... Deckard looks kind of like Joe Montana? He was always bruised and battered, and he says he was terrified of losing.
     
  9. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    So I am not as much a true feminist as you guys? lol

    Please explain how kicking millions of women many young mothers of color off welfare just to placate Southern Dems and Repubs was such a significant advancement for feminism?
     
  10. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Watch it, B-Bob, or I'll have my friend jump you.

    [​IMG]

    (actually, that might be pleasant for you!)
     
  11. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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  12. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    People portray young people and Americans in general as indifferent to elections. That they are not involved etc.

    So when younger people find a candidate to get excited about. That actually talks about issues that revolve around them more, and less of the 60+ crowd. All you can do is this. Pretty sad
     
  13. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    Pretty sad you would do so much assuming about "all you can do."

    I am surrounded by young people, talk with them most all day every day, and many of my friends in San Francisco, of all ages, are Bernie voters.

    I did witness a similar phenomenon in town, many years ago, with mayoral candidate named Matt Gonzalez. He was a savior, but lost, and then disappeared, and people didn't stay and work in their districts for change. They just whined and tuned out, for the most part.

    I will preach here what I preach in my real life: stay involved, don't go away.

    Usually, 20-somethings don't vote in midterm elections. Period. I hope we can change that. I hope people stay energized, including my cynical middle aged friends who have found a savior of sorts in Bernie. Most of all I wish people would work locally, where their efforts are meaningful. Being consumed by anxiety about state-wide or national elections is not a very good expenditure of time, unless you are a billionaire.

    Cheers.
     
  14. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    They don't get involved because of candidates like McCain, Romney, and H Clinton (to a lesser extent Obama, but you obviously have to play the game to win). They are bought bought bought. And the same tripe that has been put out there for the last 40-50 years John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy.

    The system has been slowly warped into a joke. Bernie Sanders is not the perfect candidate, No. That doesn't exist, because that would be different for every person.

    I suppose I'm just cynical and negative about those aspects. And not about supporters of a candidate that has raised money from his supporters, and not banks and super PACs.

    But whatev ;)
    Cheers
     
  15. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    It's all good, peleincubus.

    Sometimes I wonder if it's simply impossible to have a clean and open system or process once you get more than 100 million people in a country. Thinking as a physicist, I don't think political systems are "scale invariant," or independent of the number of people, N.
     
  16. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    It's only possible if people believe it's possible. When you have battered liberals who lost all hope like Deckard who believes drastic change in the form of Bernie Sanders is 'crazy' and believe only the status quo is reasonable, then yes, it is impossible because that make up pretty much compromises the majority of voting 'liberals'. Let's not act like the conservative voting base is going to push for money out of politics. It's the liberal voting demographic's job to do so. Liberals had a choice to accept the candidate who would prioritize it, but they didn't. They went with the 'safe' pick. Reasonable I guess.
     
  17. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I've been trying to control myself, glynch, believe it or not. You can be quite frustrating. I do think that, "I'm not going to reply to the other jumble of thoughts you have pouring out of your frustrated head" is not too terrible. Certainly comparable to, "you look like a sore, deeply scared winner," don't you think? Saying, "You are becoming a sad, lost creature, glynch. Get a grip on yourself," was going a bit far, however. I doubt seriously that you're a sad person, although you would be understandably sad, given the results we've seen lately. And you are certainly a human being, not a "creature." My apologies. :)-

    I have a suggestion for you, glynch. Do a search on the internet for Hillary Clinton's speech giving the commencement address at her graduation from Wellesley College in 1969. She was 21 years old. It is really excellent and was even mentioned in Time Magazine, back when it was worth reading. This is long before much of what you're angry with her about had occurred, and might give you some insight into where she's coming from. You seem to dismiss her feminism, as well as her being the first woman candidate for President of the two major parties. Oh, you mention it, but definitely in a dismissive tone. Find out more about her. You might be surprised. She was an early member of the Feminist Movement. She cares and she's pretty deep, believe it or not. I can post the text below, spoilered, of course, but you can find audio excerpts on YouTube.


    [​IMG]

    Hillary D. Rodham's 1969 Student Commencement Speech
    Ruth M. Adams, ninth president of Wellesley College, introduced Hillary D. Rodham '69, at the 91st commencement exercises.

    Introduction

    In addition to inviting Senator Brooke to speak to them this morning, the Class of '69 has expressed a desire [for a student] to speak to them and for them at this morning's commencement. There was no debate so far as I could ascertain as to who their spokesman was to be: Miss Hillary Rodham. Member of this graduating class, she is a major in political science and a candidate for the degree with honors. In four years she has combined academic ability with active service to the College, her junior year having served as a Vil Junior, and then as a member of Senate and during the past year as president of College Government and presiding officer of College Senate. She is also cheerful, good humored, good company, and a good friend to all of us and it is a great pleasure to present to this audience Miss Hillary Rodham.

    Remarks of Hillary D. Rodham

    I am very glad that Miss Adams made it clear that what I am speaking for today is all of us—the 400 of us—and I find myself in a familiar position, that of reacting, something that our generation has been doing for quite a while now. We're not in the positions yet of leadership and power, but we do have that indispensable element of criticizing and constructive protest and I find myself reacting just briefly to some of the things that Senator Brooke said. This has to be quick because I do have a little speech to give.

    Part of the problem with just empathy with professed goals is that empathy doesn't do us anything. We've had lots of empathy; we've had lots of sympathy, but we feel that for too long our leaders have viewed politics as the art of the possible. And the challenge now is to practice politics as the art of making what appears to be impossible possible. What does it mean to hear that 13.3 percent of the people in this country are below the poverty line? That's a percentage. We're not interested in social reconstruction; it's human reconstruction. How can we talk about percentages and trends? The complexities are not lost in our analyses, but perhaps they're just put into what we consider a more human and eventually a more progressive perspective.

    The question about possible and impossible was one that we brought with us to Wellesley four years ago. We arrived not yet knowing what was not possible. Consequently, we expected a lot. Our attitudes are easily understood having grown up, having come to consciousness in the first five years of this decade—years dominated by men with dreams, men in the civil rights movement, the Peace Corps, the space program—so we arrived at Wellesley and we found, as all of us have found, that there was a gap between expectation and realities. But it wasn't a discouraging gap and it didn't turn us into cynical, bitter old women at the age of 18. It just inspired us to do something about that gap. What we did is often difficult for some people to understand. They ask us quite often: "Why, if you're dissatisfied, do you stay in a place?" Well, if you didn't care a lot about it you wouldn't stay. It's almost as though my mother used to say, "You know I'll always love you but there are times when I certainly won't like you." Our love for this place, this particular place, Wellesley College, coupled with our freedom from the burden of an inauthentic reality allowed us to question basic assumptions underlying our education.

    Before the days of the media orchestrated demonstrations, we had our own gathering over in Founder's parking lot. We protested against the rigid academic distribution requirement. We worked for a pass-fail system. We worked for a say in some of the process of academic decision making. And luckily we were at a place where, when we questioned the meaning of a liberal arts education there were people with enough imagination to respond to that questioning. So we have made progress. We have achieved some of the things that we initially saw as lacking in that gap between expectation and reality. Our concerns were not, of course, solely academic as all of us know. We worried about inside Wellesley questions of admissions, the kind of people that were coming to Wellesley, the kind of people that should be coming to Wellesley, the process for getting them here. We questioned about what responsibility we should have both for our lives as individuals and for our lives as members of a collective group.

    Coupled with our concerns for the Wellesley inside here in the community were our concerns for what happened beyond Hathaway House. We wanted to know what relationship Wellesley was going to have to the outer world. We were lucky in that Miss Adams, one of the first things she did was set up a cross-registration with MIT because everyone knows that education just can't have any parochial bounds anymore. One of the other things that we did was the Upward Bound program. There are so many other things that we could talk about; so many attempts to kind of - at least the way we saw it - pull ourselves into the world outside. And I think we've succeeded. There will be an Upward Bound program, just for one example, on the campus this summer.

    Many of the issues that I've mentioned—those of sharing power and responsibility, those of assuming power and responsibility—have been general concerns on campuses throughout the world. But underlying those concerns there is a theme, a theme which is so trite and so old because the words are so familiar. It talks about integrity and trust and respect. Words have a funny way of trapping our minds on the way to our tongues but there are necessary means even in this multimedia age for attempting to come to grasps with some of the inarticulate maybe even inarticulable things that we're feeling.

    We are, all of us, exploring a world that none of us even understands and attempting to create within that uncertainty. But there are some things we feel, feelings that our prevailing, acquisitive, and competitive corporate life, including tragically the universities, is not the way of life for us. We're searching for more immediate, ecstatic, and penetrating modes of living. And so our questions, our questions about our institutions, about our colleges, about our churches, about our government continue. The questions about those institutions are familiar to all of us. We have seen them heralded across the newspapers. Senator Brooke has suggested some of them this morning. But along with using these words—integrity, trust, and respect—in regard to institutions and leaders, we're perhaps harshest with them in regard to ourselves.

    Every protest, every dissent, whether it's an individual academic paper or Founder's parking lot demonstration, is unabashedly an attempt to forge an identity in this particular age. That attempt at forging for many of us over the past four years has meant coming to terms with our humanness. Within the context of a society that we perceive—now we can talk about reality, and I would like to talk about reality sometime, authentic reality, inauthentic reality, and what we have to accept of what we see—but our perception of it is that it hovers often between the possibility of disaster and the potentiality for imaginatively responding to men's needs. There's a very strange conservative strain that goes through a lot of New Left, collegiate protests that I find very intriguing because it harkens back to a lot of the old virtues, to the fulfillment of original ideas. And it's also a very unique American experience. It's such a great adventure. If the experiment in human living doesn't work in this country, in this age, it's not going to work anywhere.

    But we also know that to be educated, the goal of it must be human liberation. A liberation enabling each of us to fulfill our capacity so as to be free to create within and around ourselves. To be educated to freedom must be evidenced in action, and here again is where we ask ourselves, as we have asked our parents and our teachers, questions about integrity, trust, and respect. Those three words mean different things to all of us. Some of the things they can mean, for instance: Integrity, the courage to be whole, to try to mold an entire person in this particular context, living in relation to one another in the full poetry of existence. If the only tool we have ultimately to use is our lives, so we use it in the way we can by choosing a way to live that will demonstrate the way we feel and the way we know. Integrity—a man like Paul Santmire. Trust. This is one word that when I asked the class at our rehearsal what it was they wanted me to say for them, everyone came up to me and said "Talk about trust, talk about the lack of trust both for us and the way we feel about others. Talk about the trust bust." What can you say about it? What can you say about a feeling that permeates a generation and that perhaps is not even understood by those who are distrusted? All we can do is keep trying again and again and again. There's that wonderful line in "East Coker" by Eliot about there's only the trying, again and again and again; to win again what we've lost before.

    And then respect. There's that mutuality of respect between people where you don't see people as percentage points. Where you don't manipulate people. Where you're not interested in social engineering for people. The struggle for an integrated life existing in an atmosphere of communal trust and respect is one with desperately important political and social consequences. And the word consequences of course catapults us into the future. One of the most tragic things that happened yesterday, a beautiful day, was that I was talking to a woman who said that she wouldn't want to be me for anything in the world. She wouldn't want to live today and look ahead to what it is she sees because she's afraid. Fear is always with us but we just don't have time for it. Not now.

    There are two people that I would like to thank before concluding. That's Ellie Acheson, who is the spearhead for this, and also Nancy Scheibner who wrote this poem which is the last thing that I would like to read:

    My entrance into the world of so-called "social problems"
    Must be with quiet laughter, or not at all.
    The hollow men of anger and bitterness
    The bountiful ladies of righteous degradation
    All must be left to a bygone age.
    And the purpose of history is to provide a receptacle
    For all those myths and oddments
    Which oddly we have acquired
    And from which we would become unburdened
    To create a newer world
    To translate the future into the past.
    We have no need of false revolutions
    In a world where categories tend to tyrannize our minds
    And hang our wills up on narrow pegs.
    It is well at every given moment to seek the limits in our lives.
    And once those limits are understood
    To understand that limitations no longer exist.
    Earth could be fair. And you and I must be free
    Not to save the world in a glorious crusade
    Not to kill ourselves with a nameless gnawing pain
    But to practice with all the skill of our being
    The art of making possible.

    Thanks.
     
  18. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Such a non-sequitur of a post, I had to respond. You think calling the election is an example of how the media is rigged for Hillary, despite the likely impact it'll have of suppressing turnout for her in California and elsewhere today? And, this is somehow similar to the career of Ben Rhodes, who is simultaneously completely unqualified and the guy who makes Obama look so smart. And, you can chalk up his hire to a byzantine sort of nepotism (brother of a guy who is a senior exec at CBS so that -- what? -- CBS would treat Obama more favorably in news coverage?) even though you admit he's been successful in his role... again while being totally unqualified. But, if we'll vote in Bernie or Trump, this kind of behavior of hiring totally unqualified yet highly effective people because they are related to other powerful people -- that will all stop. Bernie and Trump are far too noble to engage in those kinds of shenanigans. Do I have that right?
     
  19. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    You must have missed the numerous posts where I said that I supported most of what Senator Sanders is running on. I do. Had he won, I would have happily both supported and voted for him. It's not going with the "safe" pick, it is going with the winner of the primary season, the winner of the nomination, and also who I believed had the best chance of winning against whoever the GOP nominated. That it turned out to be Donald Trump was a surprise to damn near everyone. I realize that Sanders supporters keep bringing up polls showing him doing better against the GOP nominee than Ms. Clinton, but what is not being taken into account is that throughout the Democratic primaries, it has been in the GOP's best interest to largely leave Senator Sanders alone, while Secretary Clinton was being attacked from both the Left and the Right. If you think this would have lasted after he had won the nomination, or even if he was looking like he would win the nomination, I'm sure there's a bridge somewhere I can sell you. The attacks would have been vicious and they would have been extremely well funded.
     
  20. RockFanFirst

    RockFanFirst Member

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    I'd take the backlash from illegals over efforts to build a wall over the repercussions of our national security information being in the hands of our enemies any day.

    And I don't like Trump either, for the record. I think they are both horrible.
     

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