Have you met Jesus?

BTW the trick question was

Does losing your temper count?

since Jesus lost his his tempered as read in the Gospels.

This is really off the trail from your original question. The Good Works versus Believing in Jesus was a white hot issue among early Christians. Not so much today. I think most Christians, outside of the Universalist Unitarians who don't even buy into the Trinity, would agree that John 3:16 is the first and final word on the salvation matter.

 

As good as a Christian going to heaven.

 

But Christians aren’t good. Nobody is truly good. Strictly speaking, a Christian is not to even try to live by the law. The concept of justification by faith, not works, means that Christians are made sinless in the eyes of God through the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross. In the Old Testament sacrifices were made to atone for sins, but in the New Testament under the New Covenant all sins are atoned for through the sacrifice Jesus of on the cross. I know that you may have gotten a different impression from many Christian churches, but the Churches that teach, “Be good so you can go to heaven!” are (arguably) not teaching the Christian faith. The Christian faith is about faith, and relationship with God, not how "good" you are.

 

Exactly. Wtf is up with that? Live by faith and all your sins are forgiven? People who lie and cheat will still get into heaven even though they aren't as "good" as some non-Christians that will be condemned. That's not a religion I'm going to follow.

 

What Grizzled needed to add was that when you accept Christ as you personal savior, then you become "Born Again" in the spirit. Once you accept Christ through faith you are saved and going to heaven but you are also born again of the spirit which helps you to become more Christ like through prayer and Bible study. As you study the Bible your faith and understanding grow through the spirit which resides in you. Your body becomes a twmple for the Lord which resides in you. "Greater is he who is in me(Christ) than he who is in the world(Satan)". Read John chapter 3 all the way through and it will explain what I said.


John Capter 3 from the King James Bible

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

24For John was not yet cast into prison.

25Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

30He must increase, but I must decrease.

31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

This translation of John chapter 3 might be easier to understand.

John 3 (New American Standard Bible)

The New Birth
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named (A)Nicodemus, a (B)ruler of the Jews;
2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "(C)Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these (D)signs that You do unless (E)God is with him."

3Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one (F)is born again he cannot see (G)the kingdom of God."

4Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of (H)water and the Spirit he cannot enter into (I)the kingdom of God.

6"(J)That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8"(K)The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

9Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"

10Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you (L)the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

11"Truly, truly, I say to you, (M)we speak of what we know and (N)testify of what we have seen, and (O)you do not accept our testimony.

12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

13"(P)No one has ascended into heaven, but (Q)He who descended from heaven: (R)the Son of Man.

14"As (S)Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must (T)the Son of Man (U)be lifted up;

15so that whoever [a]believes will (V)in Him have eternal life.

16"For God so (W)loved the world, that He (X)gave His (Y)only begotten Son, that whoever (Z)believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17"For God (AA)did not send the Son into the world (AB)to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

18"(AC)He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of (AD)the only begotten Son of God.

19"This is the judgment, that (AE)the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for (AF)their deeds were evil.

20"(AG)For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21"But he who (AH)practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

John's Last Testimony
22After these things Jesus and His (AI)disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and (AJ)baptizing.
23John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized--

24for (AK)John had not yet been thrown into prison.

25Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John's disciples with a Jew about (AL)purification.

26And they came to John and said to him, "(AM)Rabbi, He who was with you (AN)beyond the Jordan, to whom you (AO)have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him."

27John answered and said, "(AP)A man can receive nothing unless it (AQ)has been given him from heaven.

28"You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, '(AR)I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.'

29"He who has the bride is (AS)the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice So this (AT)joy of mine has been made full.

30"He must increase, but I must decrease.

31"(AU)He who comes from above is above all, (AV)he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth (AW)He who comes from heaven is above all.

32"What He has seen and heard, of that He (AX)testifies; and (AY)no one receives His testimony.

33"He who has received His testimony (AZ)has set his seal to this, that God is true.

34"For He whom God has (BA)sent speaks the words of God; (BB)for He gives the Spirit without measure.

35"(BC)The Father loves the Son and (BD)has given all things into His hand.

36"He who (BE)believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who (BF)does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

Yes, thanks cml750. MM, I trust that you don’t really believe that a Christian can wilfully sin without serious consequences. That isn’t how it works, in case you were mistaken. We can drop this if you like but feel free to ask more questions if you have any.

 

I was saying earlier since I don't believe in Christian Heaven or Hell it doesn't make much difference to me if I'm told I'm going to one or the other.

 

Not to belittle you, but you can't possibly answer the questions I have. I have talked to many pastors about these subjects and it always ends up with one word: FAITH. Not evidence or logic. Just faith. And that's not good enough for me.

 

I'm sure you know the Easter story how Jesus died on the cross and rose from the grave three days later. After this, he met with his disciples before he ascended to Heaven. He told them "You believe because you have seen, blessed is he who believes who has not seen." This passage is all about faith. The whole Christian religion is based on faith. No-one was around when these things happened so we have to accept it on faith. Unless you get a time machine ther is no way you will have "evidence" that this really happened. I can tell you that once you invite Jesus into your heart then you will have no doubts about it. I promise if you find a good Christian church and start attending, as you listen to the sermons the Holy Spirit will eventually start tugging at your heart to accept Jesus as your persnal savior. At this point you will understand everything. If you go to church wanting "proof" that Jesus died for you then the closest thing you will find will be Bible prophecies. ther are 2 kinds of prophecy in the Bible, those that have already happened and those that will happen. There are no false prophecies in the Bible.

 

Diligent faith leads to a genuine spiritual experience which makes sinfulness painful for the sinner. The forgiveness so often spoken of is primarily meant for living mistakes made prior to faith taking root. It's not your Get Out of Jail card that you save for when you really need it... or something like that!

 

Paul said that he thought Jesus would return shortly. Would that be a false prophesy? or just false wishful thinking on Paul's part?

 

With all due respect, the Bible has numerous inconsistencies, contradictions, and false prophecies. A good example of a false prophecy would be how the book of Isaiah states that Babylon would never be inhabited again. As we all know, Babylon is Iraq and not only is it inhabited, but it is a major part of our lives today.

On a side note, the Bible does prophesize the coming of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). I'm sure some people would argue that fact, but I believe it to be true and can justify my belief.

 

A little off topic, but has anyone Googled Jesus? Just bizarre rankings. Not what I ever expected.

 

One of the general definitions of psychosis it the rigid belief in that which physical evidence to the contrary is present.

Belief walks a thin line, here. I believe in God. And my belief takes on a very specific form. Because, however, I don't have tangible proof to back my possession up, and I adamant in being unwilling to make unrelated events seem related (Ie god was on our side because we won the game.)

My general analogy for finding god involves following a distant star. People can walk at the star from different directions and from different reasons. Why they walk or what they expect to find in unknowable or unimportant at this point.

Even if the details of what the others believe are vastly different, they are still your brothers in the journey. It's great to talk about what you have in common (the journey) but it's important to realize that it doesn't really matter until you get there.

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Back to the initial question, I don't think anybody has ever met anybody like Jesus. and the grandmother described to the beginning would best be described as a disciple of god.

Assuming dogma, as near as I can,
(and please excuse the computing terminology)
Jesus was

#1 the son of god intellectually in a human body. I would suggest that a human body would not make a sufficient computing medium for such a divine program. As it exists, the human brain is functional systems linked by OOP. The balance would be thrown off.

#2 The Holy Spirit seems from what I can sell, operate in nonverbal ways. Isn’t presence in Jesus would serve, IMHO, to make him extremely labile and emotionally reactive.

#3. In fact much of this would be so overwhelming that much of his time alone in the desert could have suffered as a buffer, to allow systems to run at a lower degree of effort.

My reading of the New Testament shows a person (Jesus) whose body was occupied by a tenant for whom the apartment was to big. This resulted in unpredictable, and often violent behavior.

Furthermore, immensely larger and incompatible components dropped by to alter the mechanism from time to time as well.

Describing someone as, or wishing someone to be like Jesus is not a very kind fate which you are wishing for them IMHO.

Yor grandmother, I hope, didn't make a practice of turning over the stalls of money lenders, or gengage indeceptively sly speaches like the "render under to Cesar" speah.

 

But that is the point of Faith. If you needed evidence and logic it wouldn't be FAITH.

 

You'd think by some of the posters in here, that it isbased on evidence and logic

But I get what you are posting.