I think the two become one at some point. The Bible itself is very practical in many ways, particularly the NT. Check out the first several chapters of Romans for an example. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans 1;&version=31;
Thanks for your thoughts. It's certainly a process of inquiry and introspection. I wonder how the boundary of personal growth and external influence can be respected given how organized religions are vigorously competing for people's thoughts. Maybe it's realistic that human ego will try to subsume the original intended meaning of Christianity and other religions. Yeah, that's the positive corollary, but I can't express my personal connection with God and pass that exact experience to an ignorant lay person. Then is that absolute? Again, that's mostly hypothetical.
nyrocket- Just a misunderstanding, I didn't say people in my church compare me to Falwell or others of the religious right. I meant that OUTSIDE the church I face those stereotypes. My delivery needs all the help it can get. For many Christians there is a living presence of Jesus real in our hearts, it is the presence of the Holy Spirit. That can be a powerful and supernatural difference in a Christian. I think the example given about the little girl Caroline expresses that the best. Let me share a story with you. My mother is Mexican and did not go to church. She was left as a single mom to raise 3 children back in a time it was not common. She had no skills or training and she was lucky to find work. We often did not have food for the table. After I became a Christian at age 26 I would quote the Bible to my Mom and give her little sermons whenever we visited. She humored me and sometimes we would discuss religion but she was not interested in God. One day the realization came to my mind that I was not sure if I showed my Mother love. Especially the love of Jesus Christ I had told her about. I went to my Mom and asked her to forgive me for always acting like a know it all and never really listening to her as I was growing up (I really meant it also). Instead of quoting the Bible to my Mom I started listening to her. Hearing her story. I really listened and I think she could tell I was sincere about hear what she had to say. I would visit her and express appreciation for all the little things she always did but I never saw. I took time to get to know my Mom on a level were she felt that I really appreciated her and saw her value to my life. It wasn't long after this that my wife and I left to go train overseas to be missionaries. While I was away my Mom picked up a Bible I bought her. She began to read it. When my wife and I returned to the states my Mother was very different. She talked about God all the time. She told me she had come to trust her whole life to Jesus Christ. We are very close to this day. I don't know what happens in a person when they become a real Christian, but I certainly can see the change. I wish I could tell you how God does that, but all I can tell you is today I see Jesus in my Mom. That is something I have seen over and over. Something I couldn't do but God did. It seems so supernatural to Christians. If you have seen that experience in someone, there is a story to tell.
First, I have not read "Crossing the Rubicon." However, I have heard that it is definitely a good read, and if I recall, you said the same in an earlier thread. I will read it. I have met many "real" Christians. However, the epitome of a real Christian in my view are the people mentioned in a short story by Leo Tolstoy (the title of the story escapes me). Here is the story in a nutshell: A group of Christian missionaries go to a very remote, backwards island. The people of the island are oblivious to the outside world. These are people that are kind, honest, hard-working, and every other quality you would want to see in people. They live in harmony without jealously, greed, and lust. They share resources without reservation and very simple people. The missionaries come to them and try to give them Bibles and explain the Psalms to them. These people, oblivious to the outside world, do not speak the language of the missionaries and give them blank stares. However, the island's people are very hospitable and treat the missionaries with great honor and respect. The missionaries eventually give up trying to teach these people. They leave their Bibles, get on their ship, and start to sail away. The island people, simple in nature, think that the missionaries are forgettin their Bibles. So a group of these island's people start running on the ocean water and screaming to get the attention of the missionaries so they can take their Bibles. When the missionaries see these people running on water like Jesus did, they come to realize that they were attempting to preach to the choir. These people, while oblivious to Jesus, were living the optimal and ideal life. It wasn't what they believed, but how they lived. Their lifestyle epitomized Christianity. Without knowing Jesus, they exhibited one of Jesus' greatest miracles. The end
Good story. That is exactly how I feel. If I've lived a good life, then why can't I go to heaven? What difference should it make whether I'm religious or not? I bet I've been "better" than many of the "Christians" I have met in my life. Like, will the Dali Lama go to heaven? If God doesn't let him in, I'll be pissed. That's not a type of God I would worship.
i disagree...there are some incredible non-denominational churches out there. no..i'm not happy that mainline protestant denominations have decided the Gospel isn't all that important, so they'll just be lukewarm. i'm not happy about that at all. in fact, that is consuming me right now in my own church.
that's part of it...reaching out to those who have been underserved. the church forgot about that for a very long time. i'm with her...youth ministry is my deal. the point is finding points...understanding the culture you're speaking to, whether that's a nation or a gender or an age group....the examples of that in the NT are numerous. Paul at Mars Hill comes to mind most prominently. God doesn't have to be confined to "the way we've always done it." I think He's bigger than that.
A thread on how to get to Heaven wouldn't work well. But I can tell you how much 'sin' God is willing to risk in Heaven-0 I don't recommend anyone rest on the 'I've lived a good life model' I don't think God has a problem with letting righteous and perfect people into the Pearly Gates, it is the sin problem that has the gates shut. How good are you? It's hard to draw that line. How many times does a person need to lie to you before you realize he is a liar? How many illegal software programs do you have to 'use' before you can be called a thief? How many office supplies do you take without permission from work to be a thief? Does the $$ amount stolen factor in? If someone is a little dishonest are they honest? If your wife is lusting after other men is she faithful to you or visa versa? If you hate someone of another race do you love your neighbor? Most people see their own goodness. I don't think that is a good way to view how much you deserve to go to Heaven. If we are going to judge our own lives after death then there is not much at all for anyone to be concerned about and religions become most unnecessary. And for most religion is unnecessary, especially if there is no God and no judgment. If there is a God and if God is perfectly just then you can be sure He will let every perfect person into Heaven. If you are Not-Guilty the perfect justice of God will ensure your ticket through the Pearly Gates. I am often told about the absolute perfect people in the world and I am asked if they will go to Heaven. The answer is yes- that is justice by it very definition. It is those who aren't absolutely perfect that need help. If our courts were absolutely perfect in justice and someone hauled me to court for something I didn't do, I wouldn't worry one bit because Perfect Justice would have me covered. Perfect Justice knows all truth, can take the evidence and clear the innocent. Now if someone hauled me to the court of Perfect Justice and I was guilty in any respect, I would run from the Judge. It's all good until you get caught. I think the key word here is "if" Big Rabbit Trail. My own fault.
This is a bare-bones version, but this is a NYT article about a new trend in the "Exurbs" of mall-like nondenomination evangelical "churches": Interesting read.
Train is off the track.... OK from a Christian stand point... without sin would be one definition of good From the Bible- 1 John 3:4 says '...sin is transgression of the law' Jesus said this- 18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'" 21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. 22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?" 27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
Define sin. Does cheating on your taxes count? Does undertipping at a restaurant count? Does lying to your wife when she asks "do I look fat?" count? Does losing your temper count? (Be careful on this one.) etc. The problem I have with "sin" or "good" is that they are viewed in absolute terms.
All these guys...itching to get into heaven...yet with a disdain for religion. Seems odd. Are you sure you want in? I'm guessing it might not be your crowd.
my take is that jesus is a paradigm of righteousness, nothing more nothing less. but if the christians are right, and i lead a life worthy of entrance to heaven, do you think god will twist my arm until i say uncle (jesus), pat me on the butt and send me through the pearly gates, or will he give me a wink and an atta boy and just let me pass?
Absolute terms? It depends on who the judge is going to be. That is something only God could handle. If it is God doing the judging then yes you would want it to be absolute and just. No partiality, no bribery, no discrepancy, no unjust motives. Cheating on taxes is lying Tips are discretionary Your wife is not asking you to tell her she is fat, that question from a wife is always asked looking for encouragement. Be specific on the temper question and I will be careful with the answer.
and then a non-truthful answer though technically a lie is not sin. Or is it God's call to decide the difference between a lie and a little white lie? I think you do see the point I am making. Bravo for not falling for my trick question.
Don't clap, Jesus went through this line of questioning all the time from lawyers, scribes and religious leaders. I didn't say give her a non-truthful answer. If my wife asked me 'do I look fat' I would simply ask her if she feels that way. (just for starters) Then I would encourage her. Your wife doesn't need you to tell her if she is fat, she needs you to love her without condition. This question is not a lying question but a question of how skilled you are at loving and meeting the emotional needs of your wife (the Bible commands husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church) Jesus said when we strain at the little sins, we are probably avoiding the important ones. If you don't know when you are lying and when you are honest, I can't help you by explaining how to understand what makes your wife tick. In the end we should be honest even in relationships. But you need to realize when your wife is asking YOU a trick question.
