that our civil liberties are about to take a serious hit? I know that there are a number of you on this board who are Libertarians. I know that many of you are outraged by what happened. Assuming for the moment that this is an all-out war against terrorism, how far are you personally willing to go outside of fighting a war? What if the "war" constitutes the search and seizure of your property even if you had nothing to do with it? Would you suggest that all those of middle eastern decent be interrogated? Remember that many of the alleged terrorist and hijackers received their training here in the US. Do we shut down the businesses that trained them unknowingly? How far are you willing to let the CIA snoop into your business? Is it ok to record all your phone calls? Is it ok to read all your emails? From now on, will a joke about "blowing up someone's house" be regarded like bomb jokes at the airport where you are detained? I wonder just how invasive the intellegence will become. It is easy to say, "Bomb the hell out of them." But, what if the investigation leads to our neighborhoods, our schools, our churches? Are you ok with your teenager searched? Will we be open to random home searches? Can police now search your car with impunity? What happens if they find something in that search that causes you to be put in jail? I think that we all have to realize that this may go WAY beyond just an air assault or ground attack in some remote part of the world. This may be in our backyard for a very long time.
Jeff says: What happens if they find something in that search that causes you to be put in jail? What are you hiding (or growing) in your basement?
I little note that we all keep forgetting: Many of these foreigners are here on visas. They ARE NOT citizens of the United States, so therefore, do not have the same rights to the Constitution.
don't civil liberties change in wartime? aren't we more restricted in our movements, etc? these are real questions...i am not being sarcastic. i really think that there legal instruments to 'lockdown' the country when we're at war. what happened in WW2? i don't know to what extent civil liberties were restricted at that time.
Yeah and some of us are foreigners that have been here for 27 years and are permanent residents of the country. Should I be worried? Oh, and technically it doesn't take a whole hell of a lot to become a citizen. I can be a psycho that decides to become a citizen to get those "rights" you speak of.
If it means I am safe (living in my country) and if it means catching the terrorista nad their helpres then I will do whatever is necessary. I have nothing to hide and I welcome it.
Civil liberties always take a hit during wartime. Otherwise you're running too much risk. I don't see any danger of our government turning into a bunch of Communists or fascists. Go ahead, search my stuff. You're not going to find anything, and I'll feel a lot better knowing that someone is looking out for our safety. (of course, lots of people who feel the other way have certain "medicinal herbs" etc. stashed away somewhere.) I have to fly somewhere in two weeks and I'm not happy about it. I don't care if we're all sitting there stark naked on the plane with no carry-ons... actually, it would make me feel better at this point. The scariest part about this entire thing is how well they were able to infiltrate our system. The "security" measures we used to have are obviously not enough.
If you are doing something illegal, then yes, you should worry. My statement is a rather broad one, regarding how we Americans aide in this terrorist indirectly, from training, to give jobs, government breaks, ect ... ect... I understand we can't assume everyone is a terrorist, but we can't turn our back and use the "innocent till proven guilty/hijack a plane" theory. Im rather tired of all the rumors/opinions going on versus the truth/facts ,and I really should not have said anything.
Well, at times like this how can you not be willing to endure inconvienience? I don't mind searches at airports because I will have nothing to hide. If they want to monitor my internet useage, fine. I have nothing to hide. I don't see the FBI/CIA tapping every phone in the country. But even if they listened in on my conversations, power to them. I have nothing to hide. All anyone could get me for is my preference to a certain organic plant that just so happens to make me feel good when i burn it and enhale it. The FBI/CIA can infringes on my freedoms in their war agaist terrorism and violence. I don't mind at all. However, this power should only be given to the FBI/CIA. I don't see any reason for any other facet of the government to have this power. I'll give up some freedoms to help keep this country safe from others. Just don't take away my freedoms to try and save me from myself. (Does that make sense?!)
i don't think there's any question, it's already in our backyard. but i think you're being a bit extreme -- at this early stage. thus far, the politicans i've heard have been cognizant of the civil liberties issue, and adamant they will not allow the attacks to compromise our democracy. good start. i think the more logical debate, eventually, will be the practice of racial profiling, which is an extension of civil liberties. i'm likely to draw fire for this, but i've worked closely with law enforcement officials the past five years, and it's a necessary evil in their profession. thus, we could see racial profiling stretch beyond the investigation and prevention of crimes, and into things such as access to our country, access to certain kinds of weapons or training... very plainly stated: if you're an arab american, and want to buy a handgun, it may not be as easy as it will be for me, the WMA, in the years to come. i think profiling to that degree is extreme, and problematic, most notably, it would not have stopped timothy mcveigh. but it could a byproduct of this attack. the flipside to this is that such a radical strategy... could have, might have... possibly prevented what happened. it's not an easy debate, and there are no easy answers. but compromise to the degree you mention i think is a bit extreme at this point.
Aren't permanent residents given the same protections under the Constitution? I don't know so I'm asking... And DD, if you've been here 27 years, any particular reason you've not taken the plunge for citizenship? You probably pay taxes like the rest of us...(and you don't have any cause to answer this if you don't want to). I'm a first generation American so it was a big deal to my Dad to get his citizenship, and he was honored to serve in our armed forces, so I'm just curious.
I don't know either. Ever since I was in my teens, I've never thought of citizenship meaning anything to me. I've always thought of it as a way to divide people on the planet even further. Big deal... a piece of paper says I'm "American" or a piece of paper says I'm "Indian". It doesn't affect me one way or the other... I'm a human being, treat me as such and with equality and I'm happy. That's more than anything some piece of paper proclaiming my citizenship can mean to me.
DOLFOX You bet they do! During WWII we put all the Japaneze Americans into concentration camps! Whether they were immigrants or CITIZENS! Hmmm... I pray our Muslim or Middle Eastern Americans are not treated the same way. (Remember the movie the Siege?)
Suspicion can destroy a people. I remember a Rod Serling episode in which UFO's flickered a few lights on a street, the neighborhood became worried, and then suspicion began to take root. Each neighbor thought the other neighbor was an alien. So they killed each other. The Aliens took over the country without lifting a finger because nobody was left. If we let the terrorists change our fundamental beliefs, and rights as a people, then they have won. The more damage they do the stronger we will unite behind our principles. We should not take those principles for granted, even in a time of war. Those principles are what we fight for.
Jeff, please, I know you didn't mean it in this way, but ALL of us are outraged. Democrats, Republicans, old, young, white, black, ALL of us are outraged, hurt, and saddened. Many Libertarians (and others) feel that past US policies are one of the reasons for the attack, but that does not excuse the act or in any way lesson our hurt. It may seem like an insignificant thing, but could you please edit and change your opening statement? Thank you. And as far as civil liberties go, I am very afraid of what our govt will do. The US govt does not exactly have the best track record of protecting civil liberties in ANY war, let alone the war on drugs. In fact I can see some of the restrictions from the war on drugs brought to the war onterrorism. For example, how many of you are aware that under current US law the police (local OR federal) can seize property they believe is connected with the drug trade without even charging anyone for a crime!!! It then becomes the burden of the accused (not charged, remember, let alone found guilty) to get the property back by filing a claim in court (have to pay court costs to get your won property back). In a similar manner if someone is dealing drugs from an apartment, even if the landlord did not know, the entire apartment complex can be seized and made city property. In fact, the LA police (and maybe others, not sure) have seized property as an item in their budget. Meaning, if they are falling short there can be serious pressure to seize more property to make up for the loss. It's a slippary slippary slope. You may say well who cares, I'm not a terrorist and I don't ysedrugs. All it takes is someone SAYING you are and suddenly you don't have to be guilty to lose property. So yes, I am scared by the US response. More scared of the US response than any possible terrorist act, to tell you the truth.
I don't have anything to hide, but that doesn't matter. I still worry that our civil liberties, and the ideals of freedom and privacy that this country was founded upon will be encroached upon. In times like these, mass hysteria and fear will lead a public to cry for protection, no matter what the cost. We must focus not to go too far in this. This nation's strongest point over the past has been its freedom and civil liberty. We must continue to guard them, while walking the fine boundary between security and freedom. Let us not let our desire for safety overrule the basic principles of our country. And let us not use the reasoning that "if you have nothing to hide, it doesn't matter". That reasoning assumes that the government is fully good, and that the accused are allowed no rights. Innocent until Proven Guilty. Let Freedom Ring. God Bless America.
Here are some Amendments to existing Bills that were brought to the floor of the Senate yesterday. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/R?r107:FLD001:S09401-S09402
I think we should somehow isolate matters regarding terrorism from everything else. Like, grant people immunity from arrest for illegal activities (other than murder or rape) uncovered because of a search that would normally be unconstitutional. But if restrictions on civil liberties realistically would have a positive effect on our war against terrorism, then I'm for it. Sorry, I hate to say that. There are some ideals that are more important than survival. But I don't think privacy is one of them.
