The thing that bothers me about some of this conversation is the feeling that some people are rationalizing "sin" and "forgiveness" to the point where they think it is o.k. to say "Well, I know this is a sin but it's the choice I want to make so I'll do it anyway then ask God to forgive me". It is true the God's love and Jesus' sacrifice can cover any sin, there is still a part we must play and that is to be truly repentent. You can not be truly repentent of something if you don't think you made the wrong choice".
i understand exactly what you're saying...and i agree. the problem is there are many who don't and then see this as complete permissiveness for sin...because God will always forgive. Christ called us to be new creations. We should look different than we did before when met with that grace...a true life change.
Exactly. This is what I was inadequately trying to say when I spoke of repentence. True repentence means you truly do regret what you have done, will steer clear of doing it again. It means you feel awful about having let yourself and you ideals down, and will work hard not to do it again. Just praying for forgiveness, and feeling good afterward and then making the same kinds of mistakes again isn't true repentence. It isn't about saying words it is about what you really feel inside that is repentence.
I agree completely with Max and FB. There most certainly are consequence for Christians. Straying, or even struggling, as a Christian is a horrible, horrible place to be in. Strictly speaking this isn’t because you are breaking the law. It’s because you are in conflict with your new nature. You are not the same anymore. You are fundamentally changed (which is where the term “born again” originally comes from, of course) and to consciously go against that is like you’re killing your own spirit, or the spirit that lives in you. It’s very different than sinning as a non-Christian.
I should add that I’m speaking from experience in that last sentence, on both sides. I should also add that along with MM and FB, I’m also agreeing with Cesar Geronimo and ArtV and others I may be forgetting in this thread.
This is one of the things that I wonder about Christianity. If salvation is through faith alone then as long as faith then sin can be absolved. This leads to the situation that is often brought up in these discussions that a mass murderer could embrace Jesus as his savior on his death bed and still go to Heaven. The actions of that person become irrelevant as long as they embrace faith. The other thing that I don't understand about the concepts of "sin" and "repentence" is that many of this often strikes me as manipulating God because often you hear criminals or others declare that God has forgiven them. How is it for humans to determine whether God has forgiven them? Reading Meowgi's responses and the discussion regarding sin and morality is that there really isn't "Sin" in a Buddhist context. There are precepts and other rules that are to be followed but those don't necessarily qualify as sin, something that is an offense to a deity. Many of the precepts are themselves vague and not absolutes. In a Buddhist view there is no absolution granted but a process of cause and affect so that all actions have consequences that inevitably return to the one who caused those actions. So in the big picture an individual act might be considered as sinful but if it leads to a greater good isn't wrong. For instance in one of the stories of the past lives of the Buddha he was a merchant prince who killed robbers attacking his caravan. Killing is wrong and leads to negative consequences but in this context if he hadn't killed the robbbers they would've killed the whole caravan. In the version that I heard he even recognizes its wrong but responds that saving the innocent lives of the caravan was worth going to hell for killing the robbers.
Correct, as long as they genuinely accept God, not merely opportunistically or even only intellectually accept the faith. It’s a deep spiritual transformation. For someone who is already a Christian the situation gets a little murkier, at least for me. Is if possible to lose one’s salvation, for example? There are passages which to me read both ways on this. My sense is that you can’t but there is certainly room for discussion on this. (Catholics, as discussed, believe in mortal sin so they do believe that salvation can be lost.) I think there are different answers depending on what you’re thinking when you use the word “determine”. A person may sense forgiveness through the lifting of their feelings of guilt and/or through a sense of peace. I should add that I’m sure some criminals say this to try to influence people around them when it isn’t really true, but crisis is very often leads people to the kind of soul searching that produces this kind of genuine spiritual awaking, so an observer has to judge for themselves whether the individual is being sincere or not.
My understanding is you cannot lose your salvation. Since salvation is not something we work for, we cannot lose it by something we do or don't do - not of works. I know that it can be argued both ways but I personally don't think a person understands grace if they believe they can lose their salvation. And anyone who ever has "lost" their salvation, IMO, never TRUELY and with 100% faith, believed. Intellectually, maybe. But the seed fell on the path (Mark 4). Edit: I forgot to add scripture for this one. This scripture is where Jesus says our salvation is in God's hands and He's not letting go. John 10:27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. And I believe we will have mass murders in heaven. David and Moses and (and Paul was at least an accomplices) are just a couple of people listed as murders and yet they are considered some of the better (if you were to judge) Christians. God will know the sheep from the goats - those who truly believed. Thankfully it is God who will do the dividing, not us. By the same token, there will be "do gooders" in hell. Works will not save - no how, no way. If they could have, I'm sure God would have just sent a list of "things to do" instead of his only Son. Pride in that your works are so good that you can be save is just another sin. Ephesians 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are like filthy rags." (the rags translation in the Hebrew is literally monthly period garments). Here God - take my period rags as payment for my evil. And last minute salvations... Matthew 20:1-16 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. And after agreeing with the workers for the standard wage, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about nine o’clock in the morning and saw others standing in the marketplace without work. And he said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. When he went out again about noon and three o’clock that afternoon, he did the same thing. And about five o’clock that afternoon he went out and found others standing around, and said to them, ‘Why are you standing here all day without work?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go and work in the vineyard too.’ When it was evening the owner of the vineyard said to his manager, ‘Call the workers and give the pay starting with the last hired until the first.’ When those hired about five o’clock came, each received a full day’s pay. And when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more. But each one also received the standard wage. When they received it, they began to complain against the landowner, saying, ‘These last fellows worked one hour, and you have made them equal to us who bore the hardship and burning heat of the day.’ And the landowner replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am not treating you unfairly. Didn’t you agree with me to work for the standard wage? Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last man the same as I gave to you. Aren’t I permitted to do what I want with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ So the last will be first, and the first will be last” Thankfully there is no number of days you need to be a Christian. But remember the story... Satan said to his demons, "What can we do to deceive the people?" One demon said, "Tell them there is no heaven." Satan shakes his head and say, "Yes, that will work for some but what about the others?" Another demon says, "Tell them there is no hell." Satan shakes his head and say, "Good, that will work for some more but not everyone. What shall we do about the rest?" Another demon says, "Tell them there is plenty of time."
i used to worry a lot about those questions...like can you lose your salvation...deep theological questions. not worry...i used to be interested in those questions. i don't find i am any longer. theology doesn't excite me or interest me. knowledge is just knowledge. i like seeing lives changed for the better by God's power...through other people or through events or through whatever. that's the best form of "church" to me. that's worship to me.
Their actions aren't irrelevant, entirely. Your actions change...you're not just given a free pass to heaven...there is literal transformation. You respond to grace in the way you respond to any gift...with love. Jesus said, I know those who love me because they're the ones who follow my commandments. So my response to Christ's gift is one of love...and I try to live my life soaked in that response. I still fall short. But my heart is different. For some this is an amazing encounter where things literally change overnight....and still transform over their lifetime. For many there's not amazing encounter...but there is still the lifetime transformation. It truly is less about religion and more about relationship. At least in my view.
Yes - even though we are save apart from works... "By your fruits you will know them." Matthew 7:20 The book of James is all about this. Are we imperfect or can we sin? Unfortunately yes, but if there isn't a change, you might want to re-examine your relationship. Born-again salvation and santification summed up very well. That's true Christianity - relationship not religion.
With all do respect I find this very troubling. If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly it seems to me to remove all responsibility from humans for salvation other than the act of faith. People are essentially free to do whatever and either they are saved or not. Back to the example that got me thinking about this then what does it matter if Isabel gets divorced? Whether she stays with her husband or not her chances of being saved are no greater.
I think I understand what you're saying and pardon me again if I seem like I'm calling out or challenging Christianity. My interest is primarily intellectual and as I've said before I don't think it is valuable to argue whether one religion is better than another's. What I am interested in is understanding why people believe what they believe and get a sense of other religions not trying to convert anyone.
Beyond the spiritual questions regarding whether someone has true repentence or God has forgiven them this issue has very real consequences. I don't know if you're familiar with the case of Karla Fay Tucker who was the first women executed in Texas after the death penalty was reinstated in the '70's one of the major issues regarding whether she should be executed was that many of those hoping to prevent her execution brought up that she had honestly repented and had been born again while in prison. Many of her supporters appealed directly to then Gov. George Bush to spare her citing his own strong Christian belief. He turned them down citing that he couldn't judge whether she was born again and that he couldn't countervene the overwhelming evidence against her and the legal process that convicted her.
I’m in complete agreement with both MadMax’s and ArtV’s posts. I also feel that salvation can’t be lost and I agree with the points raised, and thanks for those passages. They hit the spot for me. Another good one is at the very end of Romans 8. “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” The one that seems in conflict to me but that I think I’m likely not reading right in context is in Hebrews 6. Correct. God seeks relationship with us, a personal relationship, and that is established by, with as much humility as you can possibly muster, reaching out to him in faith. And one of the key humbling forces in our lives is not being able to live up to what we know is right, which is the Law for some and/or simply their conscience for others. Just for clarity, we’re talking about just salvation here. Strictly speaking, with respect to salvation I believe this to be true, but there are very significant consequences apart from salvation in this life for Christians who willfully sin. It matters because there are very significant consequences apart from salvation in this life for Christians who willfully sin. (Note that life as a Christian is not a static state. You are constantly growing as a Christian, and sometimes, unfortunately, you also stagger and stumble.) If she willfully commits something she feels strongly is a sin then her “conscience” (that’s not really the right word in this context) could potentially eat her up to the point where it literally destroys her. Strictly speaking it’s probably more like a progressive killing of your spirit, or another description would be progressive separation from the Spirit of God. However you describe it, it’s a state that’s as bad as you can get in this life.
Remember you’re talking to a Canadian here. We haven’t had the death penalty in Canada for 30 years and there hasn’t been an execution in almost 45 years. And it’s a darn good thing too. In the last few decades there have been a handful of cases of people convicted of very serious crimes for which they received our maximum penalty, 25 years in jail without a chance for parole, who were later found to be innocent. Perhaps the 3 most prominent were Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin, and David Milgaard. I don’t think it’s our right to execute anybody, because we aren’t infallible, amongst other reasons. We need laws and we need to do our best to make sure they are good laws that protect citizens and even offenders by separating them from society for their good as well as society's good, but it’s not for us to take someone’s life.
This discussion reminds me of a story I heard where a Christian Pastor brought a big pile (about the size of a sand pile) of dog poop into the front of his church and said that this is how sin looks to God. Wow, did it stink! Then for demonstration purposes he had several church members act out some parts. Each of the church members staggered close to the pile of poop and began to say things like "please pray for me, I am struggling with the desire to fall into this poop" or " I know I am forgiven but I stumble from time to time and fall face down in this pile of poop" Then he had a large group of church members walk right on the edge of the poop touching the pile and walking close enough to get the dog poop on their clothes. They complained about the weakness of their flesh for dog poop. It is not the outside of the person where God works, but in the heart. We are new creations in Christ, Christians see sin the way God sees sin. You can't put new wine in old wineskins. We are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has ordained us to walk in.
A misunderstanding is that Christians are "good". God's work of grace in the human heart- that is the "good" work. No Christian would take credit for it. Without Christ a Christian could do nothing. If a Christian lives in Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ (by His Spirit) lives in the Christian there is fruit that brings glory to God. (John 15:1-8) Christianity is not a religion but a relationship with Jesus Christ through faith. IMHO
I agree with Grizzled's and rhester's answers - brothers in Christ, we will see each other one day. That troubling thing is a VERY good thing. You see, I can walk freely but my choice is to follow Him. I think He'd rather have me willingly and joyfully follow Him than be drug along behind Him. I don't have worries or stress as to whether I'm doing enough or not doing enough; whether I've done something that can't be undone. Now if I'm smart, not lazy or scared, I'll be storing up my treasures in heaven - that where works come in as a Christian. But my focus should always be on Him and the rest just happens. One December night in 1985, I was changed. It started by me coming to the realization that even though I had been brought up a "Christian" and had gone to church more Sundays than not, I was doing things my way. When I would go to church and ask forgiveness, it was just a blanket confession "Please Lord forgive for my sins". There was no repentance as I was just as eager to go out and commit more sins. I was basically using Jesus as a doormat to wipe my dirty shoes on to make me feel better. Well I had gone so far away that in the back of my mind I began to wonder if there was a God or not. But that night something happened that would change my life forever. I first realized, there IS a true and living God. I also realized that my way wasn't going to cut it. That night, I turned my life and complete trust over to Him. That night, I chose to follow Him. And that night, His Spirit came to live inside me. Did the Lord say I needed to stop sinning? Maybe not directly, but my desire was not to sin. Did He say I needed to stop hanging around my friends. No but when I realized I wasn't strong enough to not fall into old habits (sin) when I was around them. I wanted to witness, but I was too weak and I was being a poor witness so I cut ties with them. Kind of a funny story, I was completely alone and I prayed to God for some new friends. For some reason, I thought it would be about 6 months and was content with that, but less than 12 hours later, I got a call from someone inviting me to a Christian single mixer party - I don't even know how they got my number. I was thinking, I can't because I have to wait 6 months. I'm sure the Lord was up there shaking His head in disbelief. But before I could say no for the wrong reason, I said yes. Life is much easier when you are plugged in. And strangely enough, those friends I cut ties with later became Christians themselves. Are Christian perfect? Far from it. And my seat in heaven is going to be so far away from Paul's and David's and Moses' that the Lord is going to have to increase my vision just to see their seats (their seat's much closer, their treasure much greater). But the great thing is I will be able to see His seat. Sin will hinder our prayers to God. Also, sin will lead us away from God and a Christian away from God will begin to lose their joy - but not their salvation. If you are following Him, you will not want to sin, you will want to do what He wants you to do and by doing so you are storing up treasure in heaven. Though to me all treasure belongs to Him because without Him, I wouldn't have anything - I owe it all to Him and then some. Now if Karla Fay was a Christian (God is the judge, but I think she became one), Paul (at least an accomplice to many murders but penned most of the new testament) wrote, "To live is Christ, to die is gain". In other words, we are to do His work while we are on this world, but when we die, we will be so much better off. And to sum it up - That's a VERY good thing.
That is a good one. I think the easy way out is to say that they were never truely Christians and they intellectually accepted and hung with the Christians to repeated the benefits of their love and giving only to later turn away from Him. But I don't really have an answer for this one - that's one for Him. My one for Him is what did Jesus write in the dirt to make everyone that was going to stone the women leave?
