For those of you who have been following Isabel's latest relationship thread in the Hangout might have noticed that she has brought up that one of her concerns with leaving her marriage is that she might be committing a mortal sin. I understand that Christianity, particularly Catholicism, frowns on divorce and some denominations consider this to be a sin. This is something that I don't always understand. Here's one of my posts in the thread to someone who posted the Biblical argument against divorce. So I'm wondering what are some views out there regarding the sanctity of marriage? Its humans who decide to get married and its humans who conduct the ceremony so if there aren't children where does man and wife become one flesh in any sense other than metaphorical? Also as a sidenote how do arranged marriages fit into all of this? Even though its not practice much in Modern America it was a common practice even among Christian westerners not that long ago.
What exactly do you mean by mortal sin? I'd like to clarify, from my perspective, what sin is. You have the original sin (whether one believes it or not), which states adam ate of the forbidden fruit, thus all man kind is born into sin. One can not say for sure if adam never did eat of this fruit, would he have reproduced? Eve was created as a companion for adam, and if they were immortal so to speak, then they would not need to reproduce. Reproduction only came in due to adams death sentence. So stating that, we can conclude all sins are mortal. The only unforgivable sin is the blasphemy against the holy spirit. Jesus died on the cross to for our sins, thus all sins are forgiven.... whether you commit murder, steal, adultry, divorce, or even small things like holding grudes, angering another person, unforgiveness, and even breaking the laws of the land. Point being, we all sin daily (Freeway speed limit is 60 MPH, you went 61 MPH ... you broke the law of the land, so therefore you sinned) . The bible does state that one sin (in Gods eye) is no worse than another. With all that said, I personally believe that divorce is a sin. But sin can be like covering up a lie. When someone confronts you with one lie, you must make up another lie to cover that one. Divorce is similar. Do you "bite the bullet" so to speak and get this one sin over with or do you constantly live in sin with all the bitterness, anger, ect ..., not to mention life being miserable. Unfortuately, we tend to give up too easily in marriage or we tend to hang on when we should have left a long time ago. We all make mistakes. At least I do.
Growing up Catholic we were told that some sins were "mortal" sins (unforgivable). Reading and studying the Bible myself it is quite clear that no sins are unforgivable. Jesus forgave the Samaritan woman at the well who was married mulitple times Jesus forgave the "thief" on the cross Jesus forgave the adultrous woman that was about to be stoned Jesus' love and his sacrifice was perfect -- it covers all sins we truly repent of.
The second part: Do I believe divorce is allways as sin. I believe that within a situation that leads to divorce there is sin. But I could not look a woman (or man) that is being physically or mentally abused and tell them that leaving their spouse behind and moving on to make a better life is a sin.
Marriage is about love. If there's no love, there's no marriage. I don't think God needs a piece of paper telling him that a marriage is over.
That's a good question that I'm wondering about myself. Cesar Geronimo answered that its a sin that can't be forgiven which sounds good to me. On the other hand the concept of sin isn't completly clear to me either. I presume it means that which violates a religious teaching.
I think Sishir is interested in the Catholic idea of 'mortal sin' regarding divorce. I am interested in learning more about this as well, because I have known people in the past whom have gone through a similar situation.
I do want this to be a discussion on God and His word. However, I don't want legalism to be a product of this discussion. Love God, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your only salvation and follow Him. Mark 3:28-29: I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin. [Me] This is the only unforgivable sin listed in the bible. Is divorce unforgivable? No. Is it a sin? If you believe the bible, yes. The difference in divorce is that it is the only sin where you can cause someone else to sin if you keep your sin to yourself or lie about the cause. Matthew 19:1-9 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these sayings, that He departed from Galilee and came to the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there. The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?" And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery." [Me] Most sin is a one time thing and if you divorce and don't remarry, it is a one time offense. However, if you remarry, you and your husband are committing adultery. There are 2 exceptions: above scripture and (sexual immorality) and below scripture. 1 Corinthians 7:10-15 To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord): a wife should not separate from her husband --and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband--and a husband should not divorce his wife. To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. [Me] Basically if the unbelieving spouse leaves, you are free. But as raised before in this thread. What about the abusive husband? Well, that is not an exception. Why not since most would seem like it should be? Not really sure about that, that's one to ask God about. Myself, I'd say commit the sin to leave, ask forgiveness and don't divorce or remarry. If he divorces you, you can remarry. But my advice may not be the best. This is where you have to trust and follow God, most of the time its pretty easy, but not always. That's where trust and faith come in. So the question may be what constitutes a marriage? This part is not as planly defined in scripture, but I think you could make an arguement that marriage is a pledge between and man and a woman to be married. Some would also add that the marriage must also be reconized by the law of the land since God says we are to follow man's laws if they do not violate His laws.
My view is that although extremely forwned upon and highyl discouraged for obvious reasons, it's acceptable to divorce ONLY after you've exhausted all other means and have gone through extensive counselling. There are provisions in the Bible that sets guidelines for how to do a divorce. I can't think of the top of my head, but I've read those passages a couple of times in the past, so I know they're in there. As with all things, there are consequences also attached to going through a divorce that the Bible mentions.
another part to think about is the "what God has joined together let no man sperate". If God was never in the marriage did he join them together? I am not attempting to downplay the impact of divorce on children or society. (On Wednesday nights I am a small group leader for kids going through high stress family situations) -- I hear the kids pain and know some of the parents stories. As an ice breaker they were supposed to draw a pictiure of their families (these are 5 and 6 yr olds). One of them drew a picture of his Dad seperate from the rest of them and standing by an open door, another drew a picture of his parents beside each other then took scissors and cut it in half. Despite that pain some of the parents are such jerks that I can't believe the kids aren't better off.
Thanks ArtV for checkign out this thread. I didn't wan't to list you in the quote incase you didn't want to come to the D & D and make it seem like I was calling you out but I'm glad you posted. You raise some tough issues in your response and it sounds like you are saying it is a matter of faith to remain in a bad marriage. To me that almost seems like a test of faith and in some cases a Job like test of faith. This is the other question I have regarding since marriage is a choice made by humans how does God enter it. That's a good answer that since it is according to Man's law that God says we must follow Man's law. That raises the other question because clearly there are cases where a law may by humans may be considered immoral from a religion standpoint and its necessary to resist it, say like slavery for instance. Shouldn't then a situation where a marriage is abusive physically or very emotionally that be considered an instance where it would be immoral for there not to be a divorce?
I think that abuse is one of the toughest for man to figure out - myself included, but according to the bible, there are only 2 provisions that I listed earlier that are listed in the bible as grounds. I'm sure God didn't leave it out by accident. I gave my interpretation of what I might do if it were me, but I also think I might be wrong regarding leaving - my faith isn't perfect. But according to scripture, only sexual immorality and an unbeliever leaving are the only 2 acceptable reasons for divorce in the bible. All other reasons would be a sin and to remarry, would be a consistent sin for both the divorcee and the new husband or wife. I'm with hotballa that good counseling should be a part of pre-marriage and when times get tough. Finding a good, respectable counselor can be the toughest part. There are far more kooks out there giving one-sided or just plan dumb advice than there are good ones. I have a thought that if you don't build a back door when you get married and you'll never use it. That may not make sense to most people, but it keeps me working on my marriage daily. Tough times require you to work them out because you don't have a back door to leave. Stick to the problem at hand, don't get personal and between the 2 of you you should come up with a solution.
Thanks for your honest and informative answers Art V. You wouldn't happen to be Rhester using another username would you?
There was a couple who was going to get married but died in a tragic car accident the day before the ceremony. When they got up to heaven and got settled in, they decided that they still wanted to get married and asked God if it was possible to have a wedding in heaven. God pondered this for a moment and said, "Hmm, come back to me in a year and we'll see what we can do." The couple waited a year and asked God again. Same as the year before, he told them to wait and come back next year. This happened year after year, eventually on the tenth year, God said, "Yes, okay! we can have a wedding, we'll have it in a week and everything is on me." It was a great wedding, no doubt as it was run by the Creator himself, and the couple was very happy that they were finally married. However, a year passed and the couple realized they had made a huge mistake and that they were not compatible and not meant to get married. They went to God again and asked if they could get a divorce. God replied, "You guys want a divorce?? Are you kidding me? It took me TEN years to find a priest for you guys, do you have any idea how long it will take me to find a lawyer????"
I have heard if that God is love, then God/love has joined them together. If the love is gone then god is separating the marriage too. (or something like that)
Love isn't something you fall in and out of. It doesn't "happen" to you. It's not beyond your control. Love is a concious decision.
I was curious about the mortal sin part, so I looked it up in the Catholic Encyclopedia (since Protestants don't ever use that term): http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm#III It's a long and technical bit of writing, but what they are essentially getting at, I think, is that mortal sin is one you knowingly commit and that it requires pennance. If you do not pay pennance for it, your soul would be forfeit, I suppose. The sin must be "grave" but I suspect most everyone has committed plenty of mortal sins in their lives. It does not say it is unforgiveable, only that it requires penance. Of course, if you remarry and live in a fairly constant state of adultery, the penance can get pretty pricy. If you were concerned about such things, I would think option 1 would be to repair the relationship (heck, that's probably always the best idea). Option 2 would be to be sure you're the injured party by having your spouse have sex with someone else first (that may be a bit too Machiavellian). Option 3 is divorce anyway and try to repair your relationship with God later. For Protestants, the basis for divorce depends a lot on the denomination and minister. I've heard of divorces being granted because a spouse was in prison on the grounds of abandonment; for financial abandonment because the spouse didn't make enough money; and for spiritual abandonment because one spouse hit the other. Each case assumed the spouse was a nonbeliever after all, I suppose, since abandonment is only a cause for marriages between believers and nonbelievers. I thought these were too hokey since it looks plain to me that the Bible is talking about physical abandonment, as in the person left and you can't find them. But, some churches eschew legalism to try to be as forgiving as possible to the divorcing party. They do a disservice, I think, to the injured party though. As for God's sanctification of a human marriage, the Presbyterians would answer it this way: in a marriage covenant, husband and wife together make a promise to God to marry, not to one another. So, when you divorce, you break your promise to God.
I beg to differ. It does just "happen" to some people. I know. (maybe I was unconcious) Keep D&D Civil.
i'm distinguishing what you felt...i've felt it too...as something other than love. there's a difference between being "in love" and loving someone. a very big difference, in my view.
