In the continued debate about Griffin will play the 4 position on offense, because Mo' likes to play away from the basket, I can't help but recall seing Mo back it in a lot. So, I've been watching some tapes of the win streak last year. You know, Mo does get many low post plays called for him. I think there is a tendency in debating to stereotype a player to an extreme and say he does one prototype thing and not another. OK, there is no doubt Mo likes to turn and face his man, and do the Duncan and Webber thing. That does not mean he is the only PF to do that nowadays. It is becoming common. I will also agree that aside from Glen Robinson and Antoine Walker, Mo' does this as much as any PF. But I mean, he is not Glen Robinson and Walker, don't make him sound like that just to make a point. Those two have superior shooting range to Mo', and they tailor their games around that. My opinion (from reminding myself with some tape) is that Mo' faces his man only slightly more than Webber. Duncan is close as well in his moves starting from the elbow. Mo definitely backs it in. There is a classic play call where Anderson comes over to the strong side and gives a pick to Mo who then takes up classic Dream low post position. Francis on the strong side with Mo passes to Anderson, after completing his pick for Mo, and then Francis clears out by going around Mo. Mo then gets the pass from Shandon and starts his low post game. This is the identical low post play we run for Dream. I wish I knew the name for this. Mo's classic move on this play is to then threaten baseline and come across the lane for a Mourning baby hook. But he does work his man first to threaten the Barkley baseline spin directly to the basket. He does back it in a lot. He is not Robinson or Walker. [This message has been edited by crispee (edited July 27, 2001).]
crispee: You know, Walker plays in the post too, sometimes. Granted, he isn't always that effective at it, but then... he isn't that superlative at shooting 3's, but that hasn't stopped him yet. I do concede that Walker is best when facing up his man. But he does have a decent fadeaway jumper from the post. Just don't want you to start stereotyping other players when you're attempting to debunk Mo-myths . ps I'm not promoting Walker; I hate the guy. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news. [This message has been edited by haven (edited July 27, 2001).]
mo is the softest most unrebounding 4 man i've seen in a while and i've watch a lot of basketball.he does not attack the goal at either end neither to rebound or score.he'll just assume take the ball between his lags and shoot that jumper.what pisses me off is that i've watched the him on satellite since they have offered league pass,and he was lighter but quicker with clippers.he added the wrong kind of weight,fat.yeah he's 260,but one of the main reasons he only averaged 28 minutes a game is that the other 4 kept him in foul trouble.if you check his breakdown against the other 4's in the west,he's avg roughly 10pts 5 rebs.rebounding,going to the rack drawing fouls,and playing good position d is something mo hasn't done since he's been in the league.anytime your point leads your team in rebs and ft attempted that means he's the only one attacking the basket. ------------------ everett
leebigez, I agree on the defensive end. My point was purely about the offensive end; see my first sentence. I simply think you are stereotyping him to make a point that he only plays outside. I think this is not the case on offense to the degree of Glen Robinson and Mr. 3-point bomb Antoine Walker. (You know Walker shot OVER twice as many 3s as Mobley.) Fact is: We run the Hakeem low post play to Mo'. We do. And he generally attacks the lane, shoots over the d, or spins baseline, which is pretty equivalent to Dream's choices--albeit not comparable. Just because Mo can turn and face up from 12 ft out on this play, does not mean he is Glen Robinson who we should play outside like an attacking small forward, while Griffin takes the low post. Now, if you want to debate whether Mo' sucks or not, that's different. I'm just saying that would mean you are saying his low post moves suck. All my point is saying is that the guy indeed plays the low post. He is not so soft to say that he never posts up or never takes it inside.
Either way, it'll be a mismatch heaven-Unless we're playing the Nelly Freaks, there's going to be a small forward on either Griff or Mo. And either one has the ability to eat other small forwards for lunch down low, 90% of the time. I thought Robinson was a SF until they go small and use him and T. Thomas as forwards? Also heard Boston is mulling over starting Walker at the PG, because they refused to address that position in the draft, and they want to get rid of Kenny Anderson. ------------------ "I always thought Hakeem was the better offensive player and DRob the better defender." Spurever Shaq would probably agree.
I think having a back to the basket game is becoming less and less important. I don't really see a low post game with Mo, and whenever he goes baseline, it's like he's in slow motion. He frustrates me at times, because he's got huge shoulders, and should be able to spin and seal his man while in the post, but hardly ever does. Stick to the jumpers Mo. ------------------
Crispee, I like Mo - but it seems very clear that when EG bulks up, he will be a futue all-star, at the PF position. I think Mo will be the odd man out in the Rockets Future (and traded). Until he develops rebounding and/or blocking skills, he will have a very limited role on any team in the NBA. He mentioned playing the 3 spot, if webber joined us. Perhaps that could be an option that the Rockets will explore. In order for EG to be effective, he has to be near the paint, guarding the basket. Every team will know this, and will make sure that their 3 man plays out on the wing. If you disect the rumor from the NY post. Why would the Rockets be interested in Rice? I DO NOT THINK THE POST HAS THE STORY RIGHT, THAT THE ROCKETS ARE NOT IMPRESSED WITH GRIFFIN. (That is BS). I think that adding KT to the mix makes more sense on the Rockets future strategy. Play EG & Taylor at the 4 spot. Bring in a pure shooting 3 man, with DL & TM backing him up. ------------------
Cato, Collier Mo, Griffin, Bullard Rice, Langhi, Walt Cuttino, Shandon Francis, Moochie That can make playoffs. ------------------ "The girls danced, started fondling me, I got aroused, they performed oral sex," Ewing said. "I hung around a little bit and talked to them, then I left."
I don't think there is any real evidence to back this up. I agree he could be an all star but they select "forwards" not "power forwards" and "small forwards". The NBA is different today. Point guards aren't asked to just distribute the ball (ask our point!). Two guards don't just shoot. Multi-faceted players are the wave of the future. There is nothing to suggest that EG couldn't be a standout 3 OR 4. Again, I think you are thinking in very narrow terms. 3, 4, 5, what does it matter. Taylor's role on this team is, was and most likely always be primarily offensive. If he is able to rebound some and play some defense, that is a bonus. Crispee is right in that Mo is VERY effective offensively. Plenty of guys have made a great living in the NBA as offensive specialists and Mo is a guy who can do that. With his size, he isn't a liability on the other end of the floor either. Actually, that isn't necessarily true. Just because EG gets guarded by one player doesn't mean he will guard that same guy. He could easily guard the power forward. Besides, they tried to do that to Hakeem as well and he just got to the other side of the lane on instinct. IMO, EG will be a much more effective weak side shot blocker than a straight up defensive player. That means he could guard 3 or 4. His wingspan gives him that ability right now. First off, I would be absolutely shocked if the Rockets brought in Rice with his salary. Nevermind that they already have about 11 small forwards on the roster! As much as I like Kenny Thomas, if picking between him and Taylor in terms of the ability to make the team better, I'll take Taylor 99 times out of 100. It is popular to hammer Mo for his lack of rebounding or softness, but no one besides us is asking to assume the role of the bruiser or the rebounder. The Rockets want him to score, draw his defender away from the basket, pass the ball and run the floor. He can do all those things very effectively. What happened to the days when everyone complained about guy's offensive weaknesses!!!??? ------------------ Who's your buddy? Who's your pal? I am, aren't I?
Antione Walker shot more three-pointers than Francis and Mobley COMBINED. Your statement is also true, but I think mine has more impact. ------------------ The time for logic and reason has come and gone. It's homer time now. Believe.
The thing that is baffling me lately is the comment "he doesn't block shots, so he is a liability defensively", look at the West. Shot blocking wasn't all that important, team defense was. Mo at the 4 and Griffin at the 3 is fine. Griffin reminds me a lot of Scottie Pippen in his early days with the Bulls, but he is further along. When this team starts clicking offensively they will be very similar to the Kings the first few years Webber was there, but they would have more weapons. Also like Sacramento they don't have a bruiser. Webber isn't a bruiser, he is more of a finesse PF. Mo's rebounding will not be an issue with a rebounding SF like Griffin. This team is fine. Leaving Griffin at SF will help this team more then playing him as an under developed PF. ------------------ What if I say to you that the universe is a three-legged horse, eh? What then? - Russell Hoban
I would be interested to know exactly how many rebounds Mo got during those games you reviewed. I would bet he did not average 7 a game. Mo Taylor is a decent Power Forward, but he does not have the heart to be a premiere PF. Maybe Griffin does, who knows. I would take a skinny shot blocking PF over a bulked up, no jumping, no hustling, no rebounding, jump shooting one any day. DaDakota ------------------ If you like RTS games, check out this one. www.frontierwars.com coming soon to a PC near you.
why make a choice between the two DaDakota? why are you making it a choice? besides, what does his rebounding have to do with my limited point in this thread that he is not Robinson and Walker; that he does run several classic low post plays. Maybe we are going to see more of them. Mo and Griffin can play together...and for a long time. Like I say, the small forward position is the most irrelevant of the 5. I'd take Griffin and Mo over Griffin and Rashard Lewis anyday.
HeyPee, I agree that Griff and Mo can play together at least on the offensive end. But on the defensive end there will be situations when it may not work, ie. against small ball lineups neither of those guys will be able to stick with the opposing 3 man. Of course it can be argued that matchup problems like that will also come up from time to time, but we both know that having to adjust starting lineups even for one game ruins chemisty, rhythm, etc. And on the other hand, with having a more convential 3 like TMo start at the 3 (eventually down the road I'm speaking of, not this year) no such adjustments would really ever be necessary. It just doesn't make sense to me to have Griff and Mo at the 3 and 4, respectively, b/c at the 3 you are giving the opposing team a quickness mismatch almost every game. And quickness is the trump of all trumps in the game of bball. ------------------
Absolutely! I don't get why there has to be a choice made between one or the other either. crispee is totally right on here (did I say that??? ). There is a reason why, after drafting Griffin, the Rockets decided to bring back Mo and not go after Webber. Small ball is played in limited minutes by nearly everyone. Very few actually employ this for an entire game. Hell, even the Rockets go small quite often as we've seen. Just because the two start together doesn't mean they are going to play 48 minutes or even finish the game on the floor. ------------------ Who's your buddy? Who's your pal? I am, aren't I?
Now I do believe that there are times when we see MO, Griff, and a SF all in the game at the same time. PF and Center are actually VERY close in design. I do think Rudy will put his best players on the floor at all times. I don't think he worries too much about numbers. DaDakota ------------------ If you like RTS games, check out this one. www.frontierwars.com coming soon to a PC near you.
if you don't have someone to draw fouls and create mismatches,you're in trouble in the west.if webber played the bruiser role against la,they would have won a couple of games.how do you let bob horry and ac green defend you effectively?i'll tell,shoot jumpers like webber and duncan did.when you play la,you know the power shaq is going to bring.if your so call top 5 pf's don't do the same,what wind up happening is shaq is getting your team in foul trouble and the penalty,while your team is letting horry and grant defend without help.thats why they call it power forward.i wish more 4 men would play it like that.if you look up on the board,the most free thows attempted per game with the exception of shaq and mailman are guards.i truly believe if you're an elite "power forward" you should go to the free throw line 8.5 to 9 times a game.this means your going to the basket,drawing fouls and sitting the other teams big man on the bench.this in terms help your guards get to the basket.had webber and duncan brought their "bull" game instead of the "butterfly" game,the might have won a few more.someone keeps refering to glenn robinson as a 4,he's the 3 man and a very good one. ------------------ everett
Mo can play low, but he rarely does. I still think he is a good player though. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
I disagree ZRB. He might not get an entry pass into prime position 5 feet from the basket, but neither do Duncan, Webber, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, etc. Pretty much only Shaq and big thugs who are that worth defending aggressively (like Cato) get position starting directly in the low block. Guys like Webber, Duncan, Hakeem, Malone, and Barkley are famous for starting their attacks around 10-13 out and thus shooting 10-13 out (turnarounds or turn and face) as a primary piece of their low post attack. Just like guards must shoot over defenders who back off, so must PFs. Mo gets entry passes into the wing area around 13 feet, frequently. The reason it looks like he is not attacking the low post is because when he turns and faces his defender, they back up, so he shoots. He shoots the midrange face up (or turnaround) more than most PFs for two reasons: (1) he is good at it, and (2) he is an outstanding dribbler for a PF and forces the defender to back off him, thus he has to shoot over more often. The combination of defenders backing off Mo and Mo being an excellent shooting in the mid-range area make him look like he settles for jumpers too much. But there are as many 10-13 ft'ers from Mo as there are Webber distance shots. I do not argue that Mo shoots the Webber 17-20' a lot. My point is merely that he runs a face up, low post game starting around 13-15 a lot, too. It is a different type of low post game to Barkley and Wallace, but it is an attack-the-basket game like Duncan's face up, nonetheless.
