I wouldn't say that Helton should be penalized for his team not being good enough to make the playoffs. What's Bagwell's average in the playoffs again? And MM, so the uniform makes a legend? Wearing a Mets, Angels, Astros and Rangers uniforms never stopped Nolan Ryan from becoming a legend. Bernie Williams has worn a Yankees uniform for most of his career; he's no legend. Or maybe it was the Reds uniform that Pete Rose wore that made him a legend. Oh ok, I got you, it was the Braves uniform that made Aaron a legend. No, no, no, it was the Tigers uniform that made Ty Cobb a legend. It must have been the uniform that gave Maris the ability to hit 61, or the Giants uniform that gave Bonds the ability to be the most feared hitter ever. And Buck, Thome, Thomas and Bagwell will be in the "Hall" but they are not legendary players. They are good players and have had HOF careers but they are by no means legendary.
I have minimal interest in subjective, media-driven critiques of what constitutes a "legend". If Bagwell had played his career in a major media center we wouldn't be having this discussion. He will end his career as the best 1B in the *history* of the National League. That's enough for me.
it doesn't??? derek jeter will be a legend. think the rest of the country would have thought that way had he been playing for the astros his whole career?
I have given no examples of anything "media-driven", as you say. And Max, I don't consider Jeter a legend. Maybe one day he will be, but it won't be because of his uniform. It may have something to with the fact that he is a career .300 plus hitter who may reach the 3000 hit plateau by the end of his career; was a major contibutor to the Yankees' titles, a multi-time world champion, World Series MVP, one of the best SS in the game and one of the most clutch postseason players of all-time.
ok..you win...your subjective interpretations beat ours. you win. can we just quit this discussion now? (of course, if he were in an astros uniform he wouldn't exactly have the postseason opportunities he had with new york...but that's neither here nor there because the discussion is officially over! )
Max, I don't know what the rest of the country would think if Jeter was on the Astros, but I can guarantee you that Houston would have been in a hell of a lot better shape if he was. Jeter....Lugo....Jeter....Lugo........I don't know, tough call. And if Jeter was as cluch for the Astros as he was for the Yankees in the playoffs, the Astros might have moved on despite the ineptitude of Bagwell.
who are you arguing with???? i've never said jeter sucks. i've never said i'd rather have lugo or even everett as opposed to jeter. never once said that. i said that the guy is already billed as a legend...and upon his retirement he'll be remembered as a legend. because yankee fans are sportswriters up and down the east coast and on ESPN..and they'll TELL us he's a legend. and that's how he will be remembered. and my point is...if bagwell finishes with the numbers he's on pace to finish with...and played for the yanks...he'd be considered in the same vein...a legend. are we there yet???
I was commenting on your statement that "if Jeter was an Astro" "They tell us he's a legend". Give me a break. They say nothing of the sort. And his regluar season and postseason success has nothing to do with why baseball fans hold him in high reguards? If Bagwell choked in the playoffs on the Yankees as he has on the Astros, I'm sure he would not be revered as a legend. He would be what he is, which is a player worthy of the "Hall", but has done nothing to give him any legendary status.
You're welcome. Let me know next time when you want to start billing unworthy players as legends and dismiss proven facts and accomplishments so you can whine about an "east coast media bias" or any other ridiculous thoughts you might conjure up.
gunn, you are one of the few posters that remember Baggs as a choker (as I do). The way I see it, Baggs plays better when the spotlight is NOT on him. If it wasn't for Berk and Kent, we'd be in trouble. Now, if we can't win w/this team, I don't know what to do. P.S. Baggs needs to do something "great" for us to rember him as a "legend...." .... 7th game, down by 2, bottom of the 9th, man on 3rd, 2 outs, 3 balls, 2 strikes......home run! Ok, I'm dreaming....
Hey Astros fans need to get on the first link and back Berkman up, too many cub fans talking crap about Berkman, go talk about our players not getting injured by sneazing or something like that, that's what i did at least.
The National League is over 100 years old - Jeff Bagwell is the best first baseman in the history of that league. THAT is how you define Legend. Jeter has had 20 post-season series - his team is quite a bit better than the Astros, if Bagwell had had that many chances in the post season, his averages would normalize to his career averages - and people would ignore incidents like when Jeter goes 6-44 to close out the playoffs a few years ago.
I thought you were finished. Now you want to add fuel to the fire and keep up with your ridiculous posturing. And it makes sense? Why? Because you agree with it? It makes just as much sense as what I was saying. Why? Because it's hypothetical. There is just as good as a possibility of him to continue choking as there is for him to bat around .500 for him to drag his playoff numbers to a respectable point. "Oh if Bags has played in as many playoff games as Jeter"; Quit whining. You people act like he has never had a shot. The reality is that Bagwell is no legend. He has done nothing memorable at all. He has had ample chances to step up in the playoffs and hasn't. My stance remains, that Bagwell has had a HOF career but has not had a legendary career.
