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Astros@ Brewers

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Castor27, Jun 11, 2004.

  1. Furious Jam

    Furious Jam Contributing Member

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    Can you acknowledge that being a vet is not always a good thing? Sometimes it just means that you're older and less effective than you used to be. For example, if Jeff Bagwell was 26 instead of 36 and was having the kind of year that he's having now, he'd be on the bench and Jason Lane would be playing. At the very least, Bagwell should be dropped in the lineup. But I doubt Jimy has the courage to do that. Larry would've moved Jeff down in this situation, which is one of the reasons Jeff and Craig got rid of him - he wasn't a players' manager.
     
  2. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Not true... Jimy flip-flopped Bagwell and Berkman in 2002, when Berkman was tearing the cover off the ball, much like he is this season, and Bagwell was struggling.

    Also, Bagwell, while he is 36, is not washed-up like some other vets that you're alluding to. He's still gonna draw a fair share of walks, hit 25+ homeruns, and drive in close to 100 when it is all said and done. Difference is, with Lane that would be considered miraculous... with Bagwell, its a down year. He's a future HOF for a reason. Now, if you're arguing about his batting 3rd in the lineup that's one thing... but you cannot seriously be advocating benching Bagwell for Jason Lane. That's ridiculous.

    Also, Larry was hated by Jeff and Craig because they knew that he had no sense of in-game strategy whatsoever, not because he wasn't a player's manager (whatever the hell that is). His success was predicated on being able to get the most out of his talented starters, and that was it. Much of this was exposed in 2000, the one year that Dierker did not have a talented pitching staff. Also, his "gut" instinct managing was severly exposed in the playoffs those 4 years, when he'd constantly seem to bring the wrong guy out of the bullpen (Jackson instead of Dotel in 2001), or he just wouldn't prepare the team mentally that maybe other managers would.

    Keep in mind... we got Jimy for the playoffs, not for the regular season... we've yet to see what he can do.
     
  3. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Contributing Member
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    I credit Munro for giving us 4 gutsy innings. He was working with traffic the whole time but got his pitches when he needed it (the bases loaded GIDP).

    Like it was said, he had snuck out of the last inning with an absolute rifle shot by Podsednik right to Bagwell, and the first pitch he threw in the 5th was hammered.

    With 2 lefties who were on base all 4 times against Munro coming up, plus this being Munro's first MLB start of the year, it was the right call.

    Gallo's job security should have just disappeared, imo. He gave up the big HR to Podsednik (lefty) earlier in the series, and a HR/double to 2 lefties is just unacceptable when that's his job description. Thankfully, Miceli can get lefties out, and he's been pretty nasty this year.

    Lane's made a pretty good pitch to more PT- 3 doubles over the last 2 games. Kent's HR was huge- may save Dotel to 1 inning rather than stretching him to 2, which is big considering we're going into the Cubs series.

    Lidge is straight up nasty. 6 Ks in 2 innings! 4 Ks in the 7th!
     
  4. Surfguy

    Surfguy Contributing Member

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    Brad Lidge....wow! He loads the bases with nobody out and then he strikes out the side. That was some pitching there.
     
  5. Furious Jam

    Furious Jam Contributing Member

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    I'm not saying that Bagwell should be benched right now, only moved down.
    But I think that Bagwell will need to be benched at some point. At his current rate of decline, I believe that he'll be a borderline 1st baseman well before his contract expires. The question is, if that time comes, will Jimy have the courage to sit Bagwell when he won't even drop him in the lineup right now?
    Also, if Bagwell is really in so much pain and slumping so badly, why not give Lane a few starts at 1st? I don't think that will ever happen because Jimy would be afraid of developing a quarterback-type controversy at 1st. That's why you see seat-warmers like Viz getting starts there instead.
    Finally, I find it very, very hard to believe that Jimy's in-game strategy is superior to Larry's. Larry wasn't perfect, but I've seen Jimy make numerous, obvious errors. And I'd put Larry's record up against Jimy's any day.
     
  6. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    Looks like Ginter still technically plays for the Astros today...
     
  7. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    While Bagwell is in pain, rest won't help the pain... in fact it could make it worse, as the shoulder will tend to stiffen up in long periods of rest.

    The more starts Lane gets in the outfield, the more benefit to the ballclub. As Bagwell has been struggling, Hidalgo has been worse. I'd gladly take a lineup of Bagwell and Lane over random RF and Lane any day.

    The days Viz has started its been more because of his left-handed bat, not Jimy trying to avoid controversy.

    Also... Larry had NO in-game strategy. Granted, there were very few times he had to use it.

    Larry was the beneficiary of an extremely talented pitching staff. In his tenure, he had a dominant Shane Reynolds, a dominant Darryl Kile, a dominant Mike Hampton, an all-star Jose Lima, a dominant Randy Johnson, and an extremely good year from Roy Oswalt and Wade Miller. He also had an MVP-type Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio, and all-star type years from Berkman, Alou and Hidalgo.

    Jimy has had nowhere near the pitching staff Larry had, until this year. He's had great Roy Oswalt, pretty good Wade Miller, and a really good bullpen... that's it. He's also had an aging Bagwell and Biggio, and all-stars in Berkman and Kent... that's it.

    You could easily make the case that Jimy has gotten more out of this team the last two years than he should have...

    Now this year is make-or-break... but there is a reason why teams weren't beating down the door of Larry Dierker to get him to manage again... he simply wasn't that good. His teams, however, were.
     
  8. arkoe

    arkoe (ง'̀-'́)ง

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    Seems like Gallo had been pretty solid since he was brought back up until this series. I don't know if two bad outings is going to damage his job security. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges, but it hasn't hurt Dotel's.
     
  9. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

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    It may have just been a case of being overworked (as JD pointed out on the telecast).

    He was up and throwing in pretty much every game on the road trip (beeing that they were all close), and he may have hit a wall physically.

    But... you live with him, and you'll have to die with him. We need a lefty in the pen... and there are no other viable options besides Gallo.
     
  10. arkoe

    arkoe (ง'̀-'́)ง

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    You thought we were in a spin? Just noticed that the Reds have lost six in a row.
     
  11. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

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    I agree with Nick, it's odd to me that Bagwell is all of a sudden denounced as a bum at the 3 spot while we continue to bat Adam Everett #2. He's getting nearly a hundred more AB this season by batting second instead of 7th or 8th, and that's not a good think when he's only got a .313 OBP and no power. Bunting the runners over isn't nearly as important as getting on base.

    I'd go with

    1) Biggio
    2) Bagwell
    3) Berkman
    4) Kent
    5) Hidalgo
    6) Ensberg
    7) Everett
    8) Ausmus
     
  12. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    says who??? Bill James??

    right now this team isn't driving in runs very well...scratching out runs is important. i don't see bagwell being able to go the other way enough to help us in the 2 hole.

    why does bill james hate america?? :D
     
  13. Castor27

    Castor27 Moderator
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    On the glass is half full side of things. The Astros just finished their longest road trip of the season and they went .500 on it. A lot of teams would be pretty happy with that.
     
  14. bobrek

    bobrek Politics belong in the D & D

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    Actually, statistically speaking (according to Jim Deshaies) teams are more apt to score a man on first and 0 outs than they would a man on second and 1 out.
     
  15. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    depends on the team, i would think. how the hitters in the 3-4-5 spot are hitting...how they're driving in runs.

    either way, we've all personally seen the value of being able to scratch out a run when it's needed.
     
  16. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Exactly.
     
  17. PhiSlammaJamma

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    If we had any speed we could steal 2nd. Then slap the guy over to third. And hit a fly to score him. Oh. The days of Gerald Young. Where's the speed anymore.
     
  18. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    the stolen base is a lost art throughout the bigs.
     
  19. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Contributing Member
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    Everett is however leading the league in infield hits and sacrifices. Being the only guy who can really steal a base and/or make things happen with his legs, he's a guy you want in front of your run producers. Stick him at the bottom of the lineup, and he's not going to score runs- Ausmus and the pitcher's slot aren't going to drive him in.

    I think his OBP is deceiving. He's not going to get a lot of walks in part due to where he is in the order. Whenever Biggio is on, Everett's job has been to move him over, and he's usually delivered. At the same time, pitchers aren't going to pitch around him- not with Bagwell-Kent-Berkman staring them in the face. Thus, he's not going to get many walks.

    It's much more alarming to me that Biggio is outslugging Bagwell. It's almost painful to watch Bagwell now- even that double he hit yesterday, that looked like a ball he used to be able to deposits 30 rows or so into the stands. Though he's done this before (looked painful at the plate), and absolutely gone on a tear, the longer it takes, the more I begin to think it won't come.
     
  20. gunn

    gunn Contributing Member

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    It's a shame too. Fast teams with a lineup of contact hitters are fun to watch. The Marlins run last year was one of the more exciting times for me, as a baseball fan.
     

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