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[2023 NBA Draft/1-4] Amen Thompson, G, Overtime Elite

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by J.R., Jun 22, 2023.

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Do you like the selection of Amen Thompson?

Poll closed Oct 15, 2023.
  1. YES

    81.9%
  2. NO

    18.1%
  1. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

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  2. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    Went back and watched the single Amen game again more closely - just focusing on him. Not to read too much into one game, but there was a lot of really interesting observations from that game - things he needs to work on, things he does well already, etc. Here are some of my observations in no particular order:

    - seemed to start the game a little tentative - got more into "his game" in the 2nd half
    - gotta fight through screens harder/more efficiently - he was DYING on some of those screens and it caused him to get in unfavorable matchups.
    - needs to get better at using screens and particularly at putting defenders on his hip after a screen. He isn't bad at it, but next to Scoot it was clear he has a lot of room to grow(in fairness, Scoot is exceptional at this for his age - he looks like a young CP3 navigating screens)
    - seems to like to get physical but seems to be overpowered at times due to his young undeveloped frame - part of it was the matchup though - Scoot is build like a wrecking ball with a lower center of gravity and other times he was stuck guarding real big men.

    - seems to be an aggressive on ball defender - likes to play up on defenders and annoy them....probably would bother certain ball handlers but I imagine until he gets a little more discipline, he will be susceptible to cheap fouls by savvy ball handlers - Scoot did it to him, I imagine the CP3s of the world would do the same. He has a motor too - saw him make an attempt at stopping a few plays it seemed like he was too far behind to impact - he may get some chase down blocks with that hustle. He wasn't a particularly aggresive off ball player though.
    - he seems to have some intentionality to block out and get rebounds/start the break sooner. I wouldn't say he is great at it, but he seems 'willing'. We also gotta get better at getting in the ball into his hands quickly because he does seem to look to push the ball quickly with a pass ahead - he doesn't need to start dribbling/surveying - he already knows where everyone is before he even gets the ball and that allows him to make quick decisions as a break starter.
    - plays bigger than he is - made a game saving block on the play where he twisted his ankle but he got stuck on the big a few times and was surprisingly capable defending in the post with his length. He also had a few times where he made shots at the rim otherwise more difficult by being another long hand to shoot over as a help defender.
    - His length is surprising for the PG package he brings - he almost seems like after he puts a bit of muscle on his frame, he is going to be a point forward like Magic or Lebron.

    - his long stride and shiftiness is going to make it easy for him to get into the paint - I didn't see a lot of him playing at different speeds but that would be the thing you would hope he would add to his game because he becomes unguardable if he learns that with his passing skills.
    - he definitely needs to shoot with confidence - there were a few times where he should have shot the ball as soon as he got it but he paused and ended up taking a more difficult shot because it allowed time for the defender to recover. The shot still doesn't look great, but it didn't look Ben Simmons broken either. I think he needs more arc on his shot - he seems to shoot flat...maybe some weight training and working on a higher release point will help with that.
    - his vision is next level - he does those subtle little things to draw defenders away from his target like the greats do. In the summer league game there were at least 3 times where he seemed to create easy assists just by manipulating help defenders. On one play - he ran a pick and roll with Huff and seemed to telegraph he was going to pass it to roll man enough that a help defender shaded and then he made a subtle head nod that seemed to suggest he was about to dump it to the roll man and that was enough to freeze the help defender while he fired a shot to a wide open Eason who easily hit the 3. It was one of those plays that no one on our roster could have made last year - not even sure Sengun has that level of playmaking in him. Even though Scoot is more advanced as a floor general right now - he doesn't have the vision that Amen has - it's truly next level. Players are going to have to be more "aware" when playing with him because he makes very unexpected passes and he rarely passes where he is looking. His pick and roll chops looked really really good. Him and Sengun with some off ball action to give Amen and Sengun options on the roll would be really deadly because both players can put so much pressure on help defenders. The only thing stopping them would be the need for BOTH to have a more consistent mid rage game.
     
    #762 glimmertwins, Jul 18, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  3. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    https://theathletic.com/4695223/2023/07/21/nba-summer-league-takeaways-vecenie/

    Thompsons showcase ability to fill gaps

    Coming from Overtime Elite, Amen and Ausar Thompson were the two players I was most excited to see in Vegas. I wanted to see how their scoring ability and athleticism would translate to an NBA court with real NBA spacing.

    I had Amen in a different tier from Ausar pre-draft, and I would stick with that evaluation after summer league, as I still have some real questions about how Ausar scores in the NBA as a wing. I still don’t totally buy his jumper, as it looked like a bit of a robotic line drive even after some mechanical tweaks that he’s clearly still in the process of working through. His release point was a bit all over the map.

    The jumper is going to be a multi-year process for both Thompsons. Ausar is ahead of Amen, but that doesn’t mean he’s going to be a player NBA teams have any inclination toward closing out on early in his career. And that’s particularly an issue for Ausar, because his movements just aren’t quite as dynamic on the ball as Amen’s are. He doesn’t quite possess the same level of flexibility, bend or fluidity in his movements that allow Amen to be twitchy and explosive, getting defenders into awkward positions on drives. But, even despite that, I also thought Ausar’s explosiveness looked to be elite. Overall, they translated in a big way.

    Amen’s performance was terrific for 31 minutes before an ankle injury held him out after the first game. We’ll start with him. Every single piece of his anticipated elite athleticism translated immediately to an NBA court. His ability to cover ground exceptionally quickly with his first step and long strides was on full display, including a pair of sick inside-hand, left-hand finishes from the right side of the court in semi-transition that, frankly, very few players could even consider. He also threw a few impressive passes, including a beautiful touch head-man pass to Eason and a nasty look-away fastball whip to Smith cutting to the rim.

    The most important thing I saw from Thompson, though, was this midrange floater.

    Vid

    My biggest question about Amen entering the draft was how he would score away from the rim. In today’s NBA, even the most athletic lead guards need to be able to have a combo breaker against defenses that force respect away from the rim. They can struggle to shoot 3s, but they need to have something in the midrange. Russell Westbrook had his little jump stop bank shot. Ja Morant has his floater. De’Aaron Fox has his pull-up from the foul line area and left elbow. Thompson doesn’t quite have anything like this in his arsenal yet. But that floater would seem to at least be the start of something in that respect. If he can iron that out in the next few years, he’ll be an exceptionally difficult problem for defenses to solve because it’ll allow him to change speeds with more suddenness within the in-between area.

    I think it’s going to be tough to keep Amen off the floor in Houston because of his explosiveness, passing, willingness to defend and ability to drive transition play. The same can be said for Ausar, for different reasons. Even if he struggles to score early, he just impacts the game in so many different ways. Ausar’s processing ability as an off-ball wing is superb on both ends of the court. He keeps the ball moving on offense with quick reversals. He makes quick hit-ahead passes. But, even if he’s going to attack and drive with the ball, he’s going to try to go forward and collapse defenders before passing as opposed to standing stationary on the perimeter. He’s not dancing with it. He’s moving forward. He crashes the offensive glass and moves without the ball well, too.

    More importantly, Ausar flies around on defense. Thompson is going to be a menace early in his career because he’s both an elite athlete at 6-foot-7 with a 7-foot wingspan who can switch one through four and an elite off-ball defender for such a young player. He made Gradey Dick’s life pretty miserable in a game against Toronto with how hard he fought around off-ball screening actions to contest.

    Thompson also made a few awesome weakside rotations as the low man at the basket, using his leaping ability and length to contest at the rim and make life tougher for opposing players. His awareness and anticipation defensively is going to be huge for a Detroit team that needs to take a real step in that regard. The Pistons finished 28th in defensive rating last season. Most rookies don’t help their teams defensively, but Ausar is going to be the rare exception.

    The other reason the Thompsons are going to be ready to play earlier than you’d think despite the lack of shooting is their attitude and preparation. They are basketball junkies and are invested in this. They don’t just want to be good. They want to devote their lives to the game and do what it takes to be successful. They’re going to do all of the film work and all of the necessary study off the court to put themselves in the best position to succeed. Doing that is not going to be an adjustment for them. They passed their first test at summer league.
     
  4. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id...ve-new-technology-change-nba-shooting-forever

    EIGHT VIDEO CAMERAS, each shooting 240 frames per second, surrounded one of the three courts at Overtime Elite's state-of-the-art, 103,000-square-foot facility in Atlanta. Ten of the program's players, including two top-five picks in the recent NBA draft, were going through what looked to be a simple shooting routine: 25 free throws, 25 midrange jumpers, 25 3-pointers from the top of the arc.

    This process has occurred twice now, first in January and again in May, as part of a partnership between Overtime Elite, a professional league for 16- to 20-year-olds that serves as an alternative for elite high school, NCAA or the G League Ignite, and Breakaway Data, a startup that has developed a biomechanics shooting lab inspired by Driveline Baseball, a data-driven performance training program that has been revolutionary in that sport.

    Breakaway Data, which first worked with quarterbacks before expanding to other positions, had a similar setup in an ancillary gym as part of the NBA's tech summit in connection with the Las Vegas summer league.

    Its cameras track the shooters' movements in 24 joint angles, creating thousands upon thousands of data points which are compiled in a five-page report for each player. The reports are a multicolored collection of graphs, charts and bullet-point insights that focus on three aspects of shooting: the set point (lower body), shot sequencing (path of arms and hands) and release point (elbow and wrist).

    "I thought it was very informative," Overtime Elite product Amen Thompson, drafted fourth overall by the Houston Rockets, told ESPN. "Not everything works for everybody, but that [data] can't really be a bad thing. It can only help to get as much information as possible. I felt like that's what it gave us."

    A 20-YEAR-OLD can't be expected to consume complicated biomechanical data -- such as degrees of a shot path angle, the body's vertical and horizontal velocities at release or the shoulder angle velocity -- and synthesize it into practical shot adjustments. For that matter, neither can most NBA veterans.

    "In terms of making it understandable for them, that's the challenge for me," Overtime Elite vice president of health, performance and development Markus Klusemann told ESPN. "We're working together to be able to break down this really complex information into some easy takeaways that any player or coach can understand. You don't want to overload them too much."

    Klusemann's goal is to use the reports to come up with "three things, max, but usually it's one to two" for each player to focus on improving. Amen Thompson, for his part, recalls focusing on improving the mechanics of his lower body, specifically his ankle mobility and hip positioning, as the data indicated he relied on his arms much more than the average shooter.

    "We are still early in the data analytics game, and the best teams who do [utilize] the data have really strong interpreters," Shane Battier, a 13-year NBA pro and two-time champion who is an investor and adviser for Breakaway Data, told ESPN. "You still need people to explain how this is practical and what this means in the development of an athlete.

    "As a player, you just want to know, am I on the right track? As a player, you're looking just for every edge that you can find, obviously ethically, and if there's something that can boost my 3-point shooting by two percentage points, that's real money. For the bottom line of a player, that makes a huge, huge, huge difference."

    As Dave Anderson, a former Houston Texans wide receiver who is Breakaway Data's CEO and co-founder, told ESPN: "Our special sauce is turning that information into basketball speak."

    The next step, then, is for coaches to come up with drills that specifically work on the targeted areas.

    "It's only useful if you use appropriate training methodologies," Klusemann said. "The biomechanical analysis doesn't tell you how to do it, but it allows you to study that. We work on someone's shot and say they've gotten better, but other than makes and misses and competition stats, there's been no way to really prove that. This allows us to say, 'We want to improve this player's wrist-release point,' and then measure that improvement."



    Both Monty Williams and Rockets coach Ime Udoka -- the Thompson twins' new head coaches -- mentioned that not all players are comfortable with the same shooting motion, as biomechanically sound as it might be. Udoka specifically cited the unconventional follow-through used by Reggie Miller, a Hall of Famer and historically elite shooter.

    "I've seen some people with ugly shots become great shooters based on their work ethic," Udoka told ESPN. "So there's not an exact science to it, but there are some technical things that obviously help people's shooting percentage go up, and it's very similar a lot of times. You take the data and look at it, no doubt, but it's always repetitions. Some people learn to shoot with the mechanics they have really well."

    Battier describes Breakaway Data's basketball mission as "an exploration of if there is an optimal biomechanical profile to become an elite shooter," but the company's approach, he said, is not necessarily one-form-fits-all.

    It'd be foolish, of course, to suggest an outstanding shooter alter his form to pursue biomechanical perfection. But Breakaway's data can identify inconsistencies in a player's shot and correlate them to inefficiency.

    For example, the reports show whether there are biomechanical trends for an individual player that correlate to accuracy. Does he tend to miss short when he has a shallower shot path with a lower shoulder angle? Is there variation in the wrist set point at release that factors into the ball's trajectory?

    Battier says he believes a biomechanical shooting lab can eliminate much of the guesswork -- replacing it with scientific answers when players feel the need to make tweaks to their shot.

    Battier laughs when he recalls the most important shot adjustment he made in his career. He was mired in a miserable slump during the 2013 playoffs, going 2-of-25 from 3-point range over an 11-game span that included his first career postseason DNP-CD in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference semifinals. The ball felt funky coming out of his hand during pregame warmups, he said, so he decided to aim to hit the left side of the rim.

    It worked. Battier snapped out of the slump, shooting 9-of-12 on 3s in the Miami Heat's two wins over the San Antonio Spurs in Games 6 and 7 of the Finals. But Battier, one of the first players to delve deeply into analytics, would have preferred data over dumb luck.

    "It's not the holy grail," Battier said of biomechanical data analysis, "but it's an answer."
     
  5. glimmertwins

    glimmertwins Member

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    Shout out to Rocket legend Shane Battier!
     
  6. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Is he working out again? Boot came off a while ago, no?
     
  7. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    He has been working on his pecs. Popping pecs helps in bball.
     
  8. csc177

    csc177 Member

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    Amen in the 8th grade playing varsity high school basketball against Scottie Barnes.

    check the vision and mentality of a 12 year old - this is pretty cool to watch knowing what he is now at only 20

     
  9. Two Sandwiches

    Two Sandwiches Contributing Member

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    Had to check the back wall. For a second I thought Mike Egozi might have been Scott Pollard.
     
  10. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    I really like this kid's attitude. Always says the right things, seems intelligent. Quickly becoming my third favourite Rockets player.
     
  11. invocux

    invocux Member

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    If he shoots above 33% he's our best prospect. Sengun and Jabari close 2nd. Hope they fix his shot prove me wrong kiddo.
     
  12. Dankstronaut

    Dankstronaut Way, way out here.
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    That came after Scoot scored on him too I believe. SH was doing a little talking. Amen just ran down and got it back, made it look simple.

    Look how many defenders are shading to him. His gravity with the ball is immense. Amen dusts Sharpe off the pick action. That's his man, of course he's guarding but he's toast off that pick and Amen's PNR navigation skill. The big absolutely lets Huff go, if he was any kind of shooter that's an easy look and Amen seems like the "make the right play" type. The strong corner defender isn't even paying attention to his man, if he shades in any more than he does that's an easy look too, as it is he's kind of in no man's land not close enough to impact Amen or the corner 3. On the weakside Cam and Jabari are moving off the ball and Cam's defender loses him because he's got eyes on Amen. 4 guys are prepping for Amen's action and the only guy who isn't has to choose between letting Cam/Jabari work. THAT'S why you draft Amen at 4. Questions about his shot are valid but you drafted him because he's absolutely destroying the defense and all he really did was run around one screen.

    Also that shot looked smooth, easy for him. Quite unblockable and something he could do whenever he wanted.
     
  13. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I remember seeing him make that shot and thinking, "Wow! Where did that come from?" Not an easy shot to make and I wanted to see him do it again. Still do. It didn't fit with his rep of not being able to shoot.
     
  14. Dankstronaut

    Dankstronaut Way, way out here.
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    Maybe something about that motion makes sense to him that a set shot doesn't. Maybe his internal ballistics calculator does better on the move.

    Something Westbrook always did that this reminds me of...WB would jump seemingly early from somewhere around the free throw line but had the incredible athleticism to fly up to the rim for a layup. Of course he would also time it right and slam one down too, that early jump was like his offspeed pitch.
     
  15. i3artow i3aller

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  16. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Could he become as good as TyTy at the floater? That would be nice!
     
  17. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    He's the bigger, more athletic version of TyTy.
     
    Hakeemtheking and AroundTheWorld like this.
  18. OremLK

    OremLK Member

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    Crazy how online everything is now. I'm glad people weren't filming so much and posting everything online when I was 12
     
  19. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    He is 6’8, should dunk with authority and emphatically. ;)

    Did not see KJ Martin with a lot of floaters and tear drops.
     
  20. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Hope Cam Whitty will surprise us then.
     
    invocux likes this.

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