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OMB: $1.39 trillion in deficit spending over 6 years

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by Major, Feb 4, 2003.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    Yes, that's right. The White House projects $1.39 trillion in deficit spending between 2003 and 2008, and that assumes average growth of 3.3% each of those years. So much for the idea that the deficit will take care of itself from higher projected revenues. :rolleyes: Better yet, many economists think this is an overly optimistic expectation.

    http://money.cnn.com/2003/02/04/news/economy/budget_outlook/index.htm


    Bush budget forecasts optimistic

    NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The White House budget proposal released this week makes some assumptions about the economy and interest rates that could be overly optimistic -- especially if the economy stays stuck in the mud much longer.

    The White House Office of Management and Budget said it based its budget outlook for 2003-2008 on the assumption the U.S. economy would grow 2.9 percent in 2003 and average 3.3 percent growth between 2003 and 2008.

    While few economists seemed inclined to quibble with the 2003-08 estimate -- which practically matches the 3.2 percent rate assumed by the Congressional Budget Office and by the private economists polled by Aspen Publishers in its closely watched Blue Chip Consensus Forecast -- some said the outlook for 2003 is fraught with uncertainty.

    "A lot of things have to go right even to get 2.3 percent growth for the year," said Lehman Brothers chief economist Ethan Harris, citing his own firm's forecasts. "I would be very surprised if we got numbers as strong" as the White House expects in 2003.

    While one year's economic growth might not seem like a big deal, the White House said that, because of the way it crafts its budget estimates, one year's performance could have budget repercussions until 2008 and beyond.

    For example, if GDP grows just 1.9 percent in 2003 instead of the expected 2.9 percent and the unemployment rate averages 6.2 percent in 2003 instead of the 5.7 percent the White House expects, the budget deficit would be $172.5 billion higher between 2003-08 than the $1.39 trillion the White House expects.

    Most economists doubt the economy will be that weak or unemployment that high in 2003, however.


    (much more in the article about various scenarios)

    Yeah, Republicans are the financially responsible bunch. What ever happened to the 1994 Contract With America where Republicans absolutely believed in a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget?

    Better yet, these projections don't even include the cost of war with Iraq.

    So, is Bush financially irresponsible or does he believe its a good idea to pass on a growing debt and growing interest payments to future generations?
     
  2. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Major, shouldn't it be OMG??
     
  3. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Why this tripe on a national day of mourning? :confused: :)
     
  4. PhiSlammaJamma

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    Which is why I'm going to propose the big bully treaty. All countires that want protection will give us their lunch money each week.
     
  5. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Member

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    maybe the hydrogen car can be done on a lay away plan or maybe some cash could be saved on the annual war budget
     
  6. giddyup

    giddyup Member

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    Well said!

    Although, this actually doesn't bother me. It's the personal attacks on Bush on a day such as this that seem totally unnecessary. Can't your venom wait until tomorrow? 1 :D
     
  7. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    So Major, how do you propose to balance the budget? Do you want to cut all that AIDS spending that Bush just announced? I'm eager to hear your plans and see your economic analysis.
     
  8. Major

    Major Member

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    So Major, how do you propose to balance the budget? Do you want to cut all that AIDS spending that Bush just announced? I'm eager to hear your plans and see your economic analysis.

    Well, I wouldn't have proposed $2.2 trillion or so ($1.6T in the original cut; $0.6T in this cut) in tax cuts for starters... That right there would have balanced the budget, even providing for about a $500 billion leeway for short-term limited cuts (like refunds or job incentives) or targeted boosts to get the economy going along with $300B for debt repayment. That would have also freed $1.69 trillion ($1.39T from no deficit spending; $300b from debt repayment) in capital for business investment that is now going to be tied up in treasury investments.

    There was a reason many of us said the tax cuts were irresponsible, and here it is in action. All of Bush's arguments about supply side economics generating more tax revenues to cover the shortfalls, etc are being proven wrong here. All this is is a short-term popularity boost for an administration in exchange for building a long-term debt burden.
     
    #8 Major, Feb 4, 2003
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2003
  9. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    FWIW, I kinda agreed with you. :D
     
  10. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    No...tomorrow is another terrorist warning......no, that was today. What's tomorrow? I forgot... ;)
     
  11. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Originally posted by Major
    Well, I wouldn't have proposed $2.2 trillion or so ($1.6T in the original cut; $0.6T in this cut) in tax cuts for starters... That right there would have balanced the budget,...

    Is that just next-year's worth of tax cuts? I thought the tax cuts were across many years, no?

    ...That would have also freed $1.69 trillion ($1.39T from no deficit spending; $300b from debt repayment) in capital for business investment that is now going to be tied up in treasury investments.

    Chicken or egg? (Both)

    If it was an issue of cheap capital, the aggressive monetary policy would have been sufficient. But until you have demand, you don't need to worry about business investment (one columnist stated: 'The trouble with all this macho money-creation is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Something must be done to spur demand')

    There was a reason many of us said the tax cuts were irresponsible, and here it is in action. All of Bush's arguments about supply side economics generating more tax revenues to cover the shortfalls, etc are being proven wrong here. ...

    Supply-side may or may not be wrong, but Federal Budget projections certainly don't disprove the theory.

    I find econimics fascinating, but it is was one the least successful disciplines. Maybe it has the most challenges; I guess meterologists don't have to worry about irrational storms and tulip crazes.

    On a tangent...
    As far as I'm concerned, Greenspan is the Oracle. What he says is gospel (well, almost; he's overestimates the impact of monetary policy so his projections can be off, but as long as he keeps inflation down...he's great). I don't know if many of you remember stagflation and all of the economic uncertainties that accompanied it, but there are things much worse than recessions (but short of depressions). Greenspan ended all of that. Let's hope he never retires.
     
  12. Major

    Major Member

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    Is that just next-year's worth of tax cuts? I thought the tax cuts were across many years, no?

    I believe it was over 8 years - maybe 10 - which is the period of these deficits more-or-less. Actually, the deficits are only 6 years worth, but if you add the 2001-2002 years, you get up to 8 years and the total net deficit is even bigger.

    We're going to have $1.4 trillion in new debt over the next 6 years; the tax cuts are $2.2 trillion over either 8 or 10 years, starting from 2001.

    If it was an issue of cheap capital, the aggressive monetary policy would have been sufficient. But until you have demand, you don't need to worry about business investment (one columnist stated: 'The trouble with all this macho money-creation is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Something must be done to spur demand')


    I agree that spurring demand is the core, but this would basically be in addition to $500 billion that we freed up for the government to spur short-term demand (tax rebates for the masses, etc).

    Supply-side may or may not be wrong, but Federal Budget projections certainly don't disprove the theory.


    Agreed, but the argument that people often use to justify that its OK to deficit spend during recessions is that we'll cover that shortfall during expansions and it all balances out. For one, it doesn't because of our government's propensity to spend. However, this shows that it doesn't work even ignoring that part of it. I probably shouldn't have mentioned supply-side in the original post though - that's a bit of a separate issue, although they are often linked in the argument (ie, tax cuts for business will spur the economy and create more new revenues).

    I find econimics fascinating, but it is was one the least successful disciplines. Maybe it has the most challenges; I guess meterologists don't have to worry about irrational storms and tulip crazes.

    Yeah -- economics (macro, especially) is still a developing field. There's not enough historical data to really develop substantive patterns and the like. Whether we'll ever be able to account for all the variables is a huge questionmark.
     
  13. montelwilliams

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    Reagan's deficit spending caused the recession of the early 90's and justified his increase in the social security tax, which hurts middle class families the most. It is a BIG deal.
     
  14. Behad

    Behad Member

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    BINGO!!! We have a winner!

    I generally stay out of the political threads, but Major nailed it for me this time.
     
  15. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Originally posted by Major
    ...Yeah -- economics (macro, especially) is still a developing field. There's not enough historical data to really develop substantive patterns and the like. Whether we'll ever be able to account for all the variables is a huge questionmark.


    There was a large cross-discipline Conference a while back. Many were shocked at how similar concepts were being addressed across the different fields esp. Physics and Biology. Many deriving from chaos and complexity theory, I believe (yet each had developed it's own nomenclature for the same concepts).

    ...except economics.

    The economists were ribbed pretty bad since instead of attacking the seemingly insurmountable challanges, they lowered their goal by making assumptions; assuming 'equilibrium', 'rational behaviour', etc.

    That meeting was w hile back, I think at least 10 years. I wonder if ecocomics have changed much since then.
     
  16. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    Major, do you know what the average growth was during the Clinton years, and what the projections were 5 years before that? For instance, what was the average growth in, say, '97, compared to what it was projected to be in 1992. Just curious.
     
  17. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

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    Another question. What evidence do you have that your proposal generates more tax receipts, both in the short and long-term? How do you know consumers wouldn't spend even less as a result of your proposal? This may be obvious, but I'm not an economist and I don't mind looking like an idiot to get a stupid question answered.
     
  18. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Curious.

    Seems like you are disagree with the tax refunds and maybe also deficit spending, and since monetary can't do much more, what type of federal intervention would you propose to kick-start the economy?

    (And FWIW, I don't consider this discussion political. I'm not going to defend or attack anyone's budget/stimulus package just because of who they are)
     
  19. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Interesting graph...

    [​IMG]
     
  20. Oski2005

    Oski2005 Member

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    That doesn't prove anything! Obviously, Reagan is responsible for the surplus during Clinton's years. You must be an idiot if you can't clearly see that LBJ, Carter, and Clinton all worked together to create a deficit so that they could make Dubya look bad:mad:

    :rolleyes: Don't doubt for a minute that somebody will post something similar.
     

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