So is there a clash of civilizations or is it a made up thing?

It's very frustrating, to say the least.

 

What is lame is your side pretending to want peace when the peace you want is Israel off the map.

Just be honest and say you want the Palestinians to win a war, but you don't want Israel to defend itself.

 

We have one side that thinks they have the right to re-conquer land that they previously stole and on the other we have one side that thinks they have the right to defend land they've stolen.

 

Solid posts guys, real strong stuff

 

Because they understand the threat it represents to their movement.

 

They have no industry other than oil over there. You just need one of those countries - Egypt, Saudi Arabia, whatever - to turn into a economic center and over time the rest will follow bit by bit. We need to focus on transforming one country right now. Pick one, the one that has the least path of resistance.

 

Who did the Palestinians steal the land from? The land wasn't empty between the first and twentieth century?

 

I don't think it is that simple. Dubai has shifted from natural resources to being a service based economy and several of the Middle Eastern countries have little or no energy based resources. Much has been talked about that oil wealth is actually an impediment to progress but I think there are some deeper issues in the Middle East beyond just economies heavily dependent upon oil wealth.

I agree that extremist religious ideology and other dogmas are holding many of them back. I've also said this before that there seems to be an attitude of victimhood rampant in the Middle East. All of these along with more diverse and sustainable economic development need to be addressed. I am not sure how those are done but I don't think calling this a clash of civilizations[/b] is helpful and perpetuates a policy of conflict and confrontation on both sides rather than finding other solutions.

 

Are you of the belief that the land was empty prior to 600 AD?

 

Except that Fatah has acknowledged the right to Israel existence yet they haven't gotten much in return.

 

No but the destruction of the previous Jewish Kingdom was at the hands of the Romans and the Palesitinians aren't Romans.


Now would you care to answer my question?

 

Okay, so you just established that both the Jews and Arabs conquered the land and subsequently lost the land at different times in the past.

As to your questions

The "Palestinians" (obviously there weren't any "Palestinians" then as that would be an invention of a later date but they were the people that would later start calling themselves "Palestinians") stole the land from the Byzantines in the Muslim conquests of the 600's.

 

That's patently false. During the Muslim conquest of the Levant, the peoples living there continued to live there. They were even allowed to maintain their own religious beliefs, which many of them did (see: Palestinian Christians and Jews) albeit at a small price: those who did not convert were levied slightly higher taxes than Muslims were.

Furthermore, were the Byzantines not conquerors? Did they extinguish human life in the area when they conquered? Naturally, no. And who did they conquer? You are way in over your head Bobby and you continue to make flagrantly broad claims on historical realities you know nothing of.

 

Yes you might have a point there but given that Byzantium doesn't exist and hasn't for a thousand years anymore there isn't much of a claim to accuse the current day Palestinians as being conquerors. Perhaps we should find some Byzantines so they can lay claim to Israel being their ethnic homeland.

Anyway the basis of this debate isn't that some long dead empire that noone these days claims title too was conquered. It is an attempt to delegitimize the existence of the Palestinians as a people to the right to the land by claiming that they stole the land or there were no such thing as the Palestinian people. They Palestinians very much exist and they are the ancestors of those who lived there for over a thousand years. Many of them are probably the ancestors of those who have lived there thousands of years and are descendents of Semites who had been Jews or other religions and then converted Islam.

While this raises interesting historical debates none of this though is really practical to what is going now. The Palestinians are there and that is a fact. The Israelis are there and that is a fact. Neither are going to leave anytime soon.

 

Exactly, but when the ignorant and hateful attempt to obfuscate and/or falsify history, the itch to rectify their claims is unbearable. It's distracting, to say the least, as you've pointed out.

 

I was merely trying to point out that the land has changed hands numerous times and that neither Jew or Arab have a fully legitimate claim to the land so I think it's best to just deal with things as they are today rather than getting bogged down with who "stole" the land because it's not really productive. Lots of people "stole" that land, what matters is what is the case today.

 

Don't you feel at all a hate-monger with statements like the bold above? So dangerous to generalize like that. Most Muslims are against equality for women? What percent are you talking about here? Where you getting this percentage?

 

Yet you still continue to debate it. Anyway 66 years /= 1400 years. If you are talking about conquerors nobody argues that the Celts have no historical claim to Ireland when they displaced / conquered /out competed the neolithic people that lived there 2500 years ago.

 

I'm not saying that the Palestinians have "no" historical claim, I'm just pointing out that both parties have historical claims and both are/were conquerors. What matters now is that right now Israel is an internationally recognized legitimate nation and the people that call themselves Palestinians haven't been a part of an internationally recognized nation since they were Ottomans. Probably more important than that, they lack the organization, direction, and strength to be a legitimate government. Even if they were given land and autonomy, it would be just a matter of time before they were at war with either a neighbor or themselves. They need a strong leader to turn them away from terrorism and focus them on making something of themselves.