1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

  2. ROCKETS GAMEDAY
    Big West matchup for the Rockets as they play the Timberwolves in Minnesota Wednesday night -- Wolves missing Anthony Edwards and Ayo Dosunmu (late scratch). Come join Dave and Chron.com's Michael Shapiro for live postgame!

    LIVE! ClutchFans on YouTube
Welcome ClutchFans Live

Does houston's D really need that much help?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by SamFisher, Jun 9, 2003.

Tags:
Page 1 of 2
  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,443
    Likes Received:
    44,298
    Ok, first let me say that I am all for JVG as new head coach and hope that the rockets get even better defensively. But I'm worried that they won't? The reason? the Rocket's d isn't really so bad when not looking through hyper-critical thick pinstriped eyes.

    The reason why I say this is something on Espn's nba front page that caught my eye, the team leaders in opposing FG%. The rox were up near the top of the league at number 5, so I clicked on the link and checked out the rest of the stats:


    Team-By-Team Comparison - NBA
    Points FG Pct. 3PT Pct. Rebounding % Turnovers
    TEAM OWN OPP DIF OWN OPP OWN OPP FT% OFF DEF TOT OWN OPP
    1 Sacramento 101.7 95.2 +6.5 .464 .420 .381 .320 .746 .256 .706 .492 14.3 14.6
    2 New Jersey 95.4 90.1 +5.2 .441 .427 .332 .359 .757 .287 .730 .509 14.4 15.8
    3 San Antonio 95.8 90.4 +5.4 .462 .427 .354 .339 .725 .287 .712 .510 15.4 14.4
    4 Indiana 96.8 93.3 +3.5 .441 .428 .339 .340 .766 .290 .722 .511 14.0 14.7
    5 Houston 93.8 92.3 +1.5 .440 .433 .346 .347 .768 .303 .723 .518 14.6 12.7
    6 Utah 94.7 92.3 +2.4 .468 .434 .349 .349 .745 .325 .701 .520 15.9 15.3
    7 Boston 92.7 93.1 -0.4 .415 .435 .334 .331 .742 .235 .725 .473 13.5 15.3
    8 Atlanta 94.1 97.6 -3.6 .444 .436 .352 .359 .793 .279 .704 .500 15.9 12.4
    9 Miami 85.6 90.6 -5.0 .412 .437 .316 .353 .765 .268 .738 .496 13.4 13.6
    10 Minnesota 98.1 96.0 +2.1 .466 .437 .368 .347 .770 .281 .728 .511 13.3 13.0
    11 Phoenix 95.5 94.4 +1.1 .443 .438 .343 .320 .742 .296 .702 .497 14.2 15.1
    12 Dallas 103.0 95.2 +7.8 .453 .438 .381 .340 .829 .253 .708 .481 11.1 15.3
    13 Detroit 91.4 87.7 +3.7 .430 .438 .358 .344 .771 .258 .740 .495 12.7 13.4
    14 New Orleans 93.9 91.8 +2.1 .435 .438 .376 .338 .768 .316 .731 .521 14.0 14.1
    15 Chicago 95.0 100.1 -5.1 .445 .439 .350 .323 .722 .276 .694 .488 16.2 14.2
    16 Washington 91.5 92.5 -1.0 .440 .442 .312 .362 .779 .272 .716 .493 12.6 13.6
    17 LA Lakers 100.4 98.0 +2.3 .451 .443 .356 .380 .734 .301 .727 .512 14.0 13.8
    18 Denver 84.2 92.4 -8.3 .411 .443 .278 .370 .699 .312 .732 .512 17.4 16.3
    19 Seattle 92.1 92.3 -0.1 .437 .447 .353 .344 .744 .281 .717 .496 12.5 14.1
    20 LA Clippers 93.8 97.9 -4.1 .437 .447 .331 .365 .750 .290 .701 .497 15.2 13.4
    21 Portland 95.2 92.5 +2.6 .460 .450 .330 .341 .745 .302 .722 .512 14.5 14.6
    22 Golden State 102.4 103.6 -1.1 .441 .452 .344 .372 .778 .349 .678 .516 15.2 13.2
    23 Philadelphia 96.8 94.5 +2.3 .448 .452 .311 .354 .775 .302 .726 .511 14.1 16.5
    24 Cleveland 91.4 101.0 -9.6 .422 .453 .327 .358 .747 .309 .731 .516 17.4 13.5
    25 Orlando 98.5 98.4 +0.1 .436 .455 .357 .334 .777 .269 .711 .484 13.9 15.7
    26 New York 95.9 97.2 -1.4 .441 .457 .383 .340 .815 .243 .717 .475 13.6 13.8
    27 Milwaukee 99.5 99.3 +0.2 .457 .458 .383 .375 .776 .256 .698 .476 12.1 13.6
    28 Memphis 97.5 100.7 -3.2 .452 .460 .365 .363 .739 .269 .686 .480 14.8 14.3
    29 Toronto 90.9 96.8 -5.9 .427 .461 .343 .375 .718 .282 .706 .485 13.5 13.2


    First, the Rox rank surprisingly high (5th), among the leagues very best defensive teams in NJ, Sac and SA, as far as opposing fg%, perhaps the most important defensive stat.

    Next stat, rebound % (%of total rebounds a game the rox get, on average), this time the Rockets do even better (3rd- .518), just a few thousandths of a point behind Utah and New Orleans. (this calls into question the "what we need is a bruising PF who can rebound" theory; my explanation is that Francis' extraordinary rebounding skills maybe camouflage this?)

    Ok, then turnovers forced. Here is where the wheels fall off. The Rox rank a dismal 2nd to last, ahead of only Atlanta.

    Let's theorize on this a second, perhaps the rockets Reb and FG def. numbers are so good because they "stay at home," playing off their man, giving up more jumpers instead of lay ups, thereby lowering FG% but decreasing chances for TO's? Possibly.

    Perhaps this is the result of habits developed during the small ball, pre-Yao days? The Rox didn't have a legit center or shotblocker, so hence the perimeter defs. played off their man, gambling less because a trip to the hole was an easy deuce.

    So if this is the problem with the Rockets defense (assuming that it even is the problem), can JVG get them to be more aggressive? Can he get them to force more turnovers? I don't know. I remember watching his knick teams but I don't recall whether or not they forced a bunch of TOs.

    Another thing that may (I repeat, may, I am pro JVG) be signified by this is that we really need an offensive coach, as the Rockets D isn't as bad as we thought. (although, you know what they say about lies and statistics).

    That being said, no matter how good or bad they were on D, there is always room for improvement and hopefully JVG will do so.
     
    #1 SamFisher, Jun 9, 2003
  2. JPM0016

    JPM0016 Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,471
    Likes Received:
    43
    the way i look at the situation is the rockets haven't been to the playoffs in 4 years so it can't get any worse. I mean last year they had the #1 pick. Van Gundy was probably the best guy out there still so let's all hope for the best.
     
    #2 JPM0016, Jun 9, 2003
  3. kubli9

    kubli9 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2002
    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    That ranking doesn't really tell the whole story, the Rockets were playing great defense the first half of the season up until the legendary Lakers game. After that, the Rockets had some real nightmares of games on defense. I think they were the #2 or #3 team in the league on defense at the halfway point. This team could still improve on defense a great deal.
     
    #3 kubli9, Jun 9, 2003
  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,443
    Likes Received:
    44,298
    They still finished fairly high, though, overall, in most categories.

    You know what would be interesting (but probably doesn't exist)? A breakdown, of the Rocket's defensive and offensive #s for each half, seasonally. Then we could see about the criticism of "doesn't make adjustments at half time" holds up.
     
    #4 SamFisher, Jun 9, 2003
  5. kidrock8

    kidrock8 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2000
    Messages:
    6,414
    Likes Received:
    4
    This is reason # 324987324978342798 that stats don't mean crap.

    The Rockets have a piss-poor defense, no matter what stats you pull out of your @ss.

    We have zero defensive stoppers, not that much of an inside presence, and we are too slow to rotate on defense.
     
    #5 kidrock8, Jun 9, 2003
  6. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,443
    Likes Received:
    44,298
    Well, "defensive stopper" is a fluid term, and though he isn't michael cooper I think Posey qualifies.

    But if stats like Def fg% and Rb % don't matter, then why are the consensus other top defensive teams, like Sac and NJ, and who, I would imagine have all of these qualities, also rank high in them?,
     
    #6 SamFisher, Jun 9, 2003
  7. ragingFire

    ragingFire Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    The 5th place finish is misleading.

    We allowed 43.3% FG.
    The 15th place team allowed 43.9%
    Worked out to 1 pt / game.

    There is a difference but I would not label 1 team a great defensive team and the other bad.
     
    #7 ragingFire, Jun 9, 2003
  8. Sleepy

    Sleepy Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 1999
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    What did we shoot%. I remember nights of 29% 30% 35% come on when you have a 7'5 big man and your jacking 28 threes a night. Thats why you lose.
     
    #8 Sleepy, Jun 9, 2003
  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,443
    Likes Received:
    44,298
    I would say the same thing, but look at the other top teams in that category: Sacramento, NJ, SA, Ind. all are up there, NJ, SA and Sac are arguably the top defenseive teams in the league.
     
    #9 SamFisher, Jun 9, 2003
  10. Yetti

    Yetti Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    9,589
    Likes Received:
    529
    It sure does need a lot of help!!!! Due to the selfish way that they have been playing, the team defence on both defence and offence has been almost non existant. All that should change if JVG is as good as they say. Also we might get us a couple of players that know how to play defence.
     
    #10 Yetti, Jun 9, 2003
  11. x_trepidation_x

    x_trepidation_x Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2002
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, raise a red flag for Turnovers.

    As for defense, our defense could be so much better if we brought in a real power forward. If Gundy is smart enough, he will do just that. Our power forward rotation might be worst than the L.A. Lakers. <B>How difficult would it be to create a twin tower in Houston especially considering Yao is your building block.</B> I realize height isn't always a measure of talent but it would be nice to have a player who is 7 ft or taller, who can bang inside, at power forward. I'm not suggesting Duncan but someone who is raw and athletic but doesn't necessarily have to have the offensive skills but never the less can defend against the best power forwards in the west.

    <I>"Who ever advised the Houston Organization to give M. Taylor his contract should be question for insanity"</I>

    ** Taylor = 6 ft 9, in flatted height, power forward in the West who averages 1.02 points per shot (no wonder Rockets failed to make playoffs)

    Second, our perimeter defense was awful. Just because we have the luxury of a 7 ft 5 player in the middle shouldn't give the guards the right to have the night off on defense. If our guards had played any type of defense the opposing teams would have had nightmares thinking about playing us.

    So, I see 2 problems: 1) We need a taller, stronger, defensive minded power forward 2) Our guards need to put some pressure on the ball
     
    #11 x_trepidation_x, Jun 9, 2003
  12. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,443
    Likes Received:
    44,298
    The rationale that I get from this and a few other posts in this thread are "The Rockets defense sucks because it sucks!! blah blah blah". I don't dispute that it altogether may very well suck, but that's not what I was going for in this thread; I was hoping to take things to a bit of a deeper level than comments like "bad team defense"

    What i want to know is 1. what the deficiencies actually were, with at least some evidence to back it up.

    I've identified one, inability to force turnovers, via the available evidence.
    2. What do the Rox need to do to rectify their problems,
    and 3. Is JVG the man to do so given his past histroy and the current personnel set up?
     
    #12 SamFisher, Jun 9, 2003
  13. TBar

    TBar Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,033
    Likes Received:
    1
    I watched as many games as I could. In the live games I saw- around 22, the Rockets defense looked above average the 1st 1/2 season. The defense kept us in some games. In the games we played well in with good- tough opponenets- like Sacramento, Philadelphia, Sna Antonio, the Lakers, Indiana, Phoenix, Portland, and others- we played well - contingent on matchups of course. With some work this team can become among the top 4 or 5 western teams defensively.

    Rememeber the Rox would collapse against poor teams - Miami, Cleveland, the Clippers. When the rockets came ready to play - focussed - they did well.
     
    #13 TBar, Jun 9, 2003
  14. pasox2

    pasox2 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2001
    Messages:
    4,251
    Likes Received:
    47
    perimeter d,
    sealing your man
    rebounding.

    perimeter d : Stopping penetration and closing passing lanes. Rox are terrible. The other team is inside before we set up.

    Sealing your man : Trapping, cutting off options. Making them earn it. Not rox. Rox say : who's got my guy?

    Rebounding. After a good stand, you must get the ball. Many teams come up with second chances after we get a bad shot.
     
    #14 pasox2, Jun 9, 2003
  15. DavidS

    DavidS Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2000
    Messages:
    8,605
    Likes Received:
    0
    The mere fact that we got Yao improved our rebouding and defense.

    But's not the same thing as a defensive commitment on a team scale.
     
    #15 DavidS, Jun 9, 2003
  16. ragingFire

    ragingFire Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2003
    Messages:
    1,671
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good summary.

    I would add 1 thing, after a Rocket perimeter player gets beat and someone else covers his man's drive, he rarely ever hustles back into the play and holds the helper's man or helps with boxing out and rebounding. He just stays 25 ft from the basket and watches.

    That is the reason when we have the 1st problem u listed, it manifests into the 3rd problem.
     
    #16 ragingFire, Jun 9, 2003
  17. SLA

    SLA Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmm....I agree. But this is only like 60% of the time. Sometimes....their defense is just wonderful. But it was too inconsistent....and hmm....well yeah...."piss-poor".

    Stats don't mean crap!!

    I agree. We are too slow to rotate. And our perimeter defense is just horrible!
     
    #17 SLA, Jun 9, 2003
  18. Yetti

    Yetti Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    9,589
    Likes Received:
    529
    What I was refering to was that in fundamental terms is that nobody helps out on offence or defence. I get the impression that 1] Do they know how to.2] Do they want to 3] Have they been told to do so? Helping out is a vital part of the Team Game.
    I refer to the selfish play-the iso play- the stand arround and watch the play. All of these things have contributed to the lack of team defence, at times I questioned if the players or the coaches realy cared. Of course,[ I know you wont like it], I place the blame on Rudy for not keeping control of the Team. Most of the time it looked like Francis dictated while the Rockets were on the court. Being a very poor playmaker [I dont realy believe that*] the Game was the Mobes and Franchise Show. Last season never felt like the team was bonded together and playing for and with each other.
    * In the All Star Game he showed that he can be a playmaker, when he is instructed to be one and he believes in his team-mates.

    Sam, do you need me explain what helping out means?
     
    #18 Yetti, Jun 9, 2003
  19. sun12

    sun12 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    14
    I have mentioned at least twice in the middle of the season:

    Rox opp. field goal percentage ranked #5 this past season,

    BUT

    Rox opp. field goal percentage ranked #27 the season before this season.

    We have a solid foundation to be a great defensive team because of our center position.
     
    #19 sun12, Jun 9, 2003
  20. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    63,443
    Likes Received:
    44,298
    Yetti, only you could take this thread and turn it into a bash of francis' running of the offense.

    What you just described, the "play the iso play- the stand arround and watch the play" defense, is more commonly known among people who watch and play basketball as "man-to-man" defense.

    Do you need me to explain what man to man defense means?

    If it's lack of double teaming that you lament, then you are certainly right to blame the coaches, as it is their call as to whether or not to double, who to double, when, etc. etc. etc.

    I personally think the Rox should run more zone, perhaps a variant of a 1-3-1, and funnel penetration right towards yao. Even though he is not a great natural shotblocker, he is an intimidating force and would have a deterrent effect. But that's just a theory.
     
    #20 SamFisher, Jun 9, 2003
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 2

Share This Page