Uh...because they're not as good. Did not claim Kobe was a mediocre role player, just pointed out how playing with Shaq does positively effect his play. Sorry about the lack of big, bold letters and exclamations of laughter, I try to stick to actual points....
It's a good article you have there man, but You can't be comparing people and players like that. Let me ask you this-<b> Is it Kobe's fault that he has a 315 lb. man down in the middle? Is it Kobe's fault he is the second option on the team, that the coach controls? </b> I'm a kobe"disliker" myself, going on 5 years, but Please give him credit where it is due. I'm sure a jerry stackhouse, or a Bonzi Wells, or even a Mike Miller, to go alittle extreme, Could do probably if not but as good as Kobe is doing now with Shaq on his side. I'll post some stats in a bit with Penny Hardaway's when Him and Shaq played side by side. Kobe like #'s. I surely assume Penny had that.
Kobe vs. Jordan Hmmmm... Now I'll admit something right now: I don't like Michael Jordan. I never have. He's certainly a great player, Top 50, at least, but I think this "undisputed greatest player ever" stuff is garbage. Go ahead and flame me if you want to... I get that all the time anyway. So, I'll try my best to keep this from being an anti-Jordan rant, but it may deteriorate fast. Actually, come to think of it, I don't like Shaq either (I sense more flames), I think he has little skill and is overly protected. But Shaq is undoubtedly the most dominant player in the game, whether the refs favor him shamelessly or not. Jordan never had a big guy to help him out on offense like Shaq, although Horace Grant was very good in his heyday. Without Shaq, Kobe would score more points... but he would shoot a lower percentage and win fewer games; that much is obvious. Kobe would most likely turn into a great stat player that didn't win very much, at least not championships... Malone+Stockton-like perhaps. But those guys are still going to the Hall of Fame, and Kobe is too. But look at what Jordan had: first, he had Pippen. Far more than his offense, which was good, but not spectacular, PIPPEN ALWAYS TOOK THE TOUGHEST DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENT. Jordan wasn't guarding Magic Johnson, et al, Pippen was. There is no question in my mind that Jordan did not deserve all those defensive awards. That's called HYPE. Secondly, Jordan had either Grant or Rodman during his championship runs. Grant provided offense, defense, rebounding... you name it, he was an all-around player. Rodman wasn't a good offensive player at all, and his on-the-ball defense really wasn't that great, but he could damn sure rebound. That allowed Jordan to throw up all those ill-advised shots. So here's one question interesting in itself: Shaq (in his prime) or Pippen (prime) and Grant/Rodman? Not so easy. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that I wouldn't take Shaq most of the time, but in this case, when you have Jordan/Kobe already, you don't need his offense quite as much. I'll take Jordan for the offense, Kobe for the defense (more flames). But Kobe is still improving... I think he COULD overtake Jordan in playing ability, but he will certainly never get the hype. David Stern invested too much in Jordan, plus the league is doing too well to warrant doing it again, though I bet he could if he wanted to. PS: Let's not forget that Phil Jackson has said that "Kobe is the best all-around player I've ever coached" meaning better than Jordan, not necessarily offensively, but in other ways. Jackson's words, not mine. Although I don't like Phil Jackson either (jeez, aren't I making myself popular today?)
sorry but none of those players could do what kobe's doing w/ the lakers right now if they were with the lakers. stackhouse--not the clutch performer that kobe is. 'nuff said. bonzi wells--he DOES have the best chance out of the three you mentioned to actually make the lakers as good as a laker team w/ kobe...but that would take a lot of discipline...something wells haven't gotten a grasp of yet the guy i think that could fill kobe's shoes nicely is tmac...he might be bigheaded but he's damn good. he would have an easy time filling kobe's spot all in all, not anyone and everyone can do what kobe does right now with the lakers. only a few guys could probably pull it off (tmac, jordan now, maybe carter). so basically, kobe's just damn good.
no wonder you get flamed . saying that jordan is JUST a top 50 player is undervaluing and underestimating him. name 49 players that are better than him...i think you'd have trouble doing that. arguments can probably be made ONLY for: bird, chamberlain, and bill russell. But look at what Jordan had: first, he had Pippen. Far more than his offense, which was good, but not spectacular, PIPPEN ALWAYS TOOK THE TOUGHEST DEFENSIVE ASSIGNMENT. Jordan wasn't guarding Magic Johnson, et al, Pippen was. There is no question in my mind that Jordan did not deserve all those defensive awards. That's called HYPE. Yes Pippen did guard the better player on the opposing teams at times but Jordan isn't a member of the Houston 'All O no D' Rockets either. 2.4 steals a game for a career avg. 5 DEFENSIVE rebounds a game for a career avg. and he used one of his best tools-intimidation. who wouldn't be scared to go up against jordan sans iverson and bryant? i try to root against jordan as much as i can but give the guy credit...he played on both ends of the floor. That allowed Jordan to throw up all those ill-advised shots. i'd say that shooting at least 48% for your career (before the washington wizards) and making all those clutch shots could be called ill advised. So here's one question interesting in itself: Shaq (in his prime) or Pippen (prime) and Grant/Rodman? Not so easy. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that I wouldn't take Shaq most of the time, but in this case, when you have Jordan/Kobe already, you don't need his offense quite as much. shaq vs pippen/grant/rodman are different situations w/ different players. shaq is more offensive minded whereas the pippen crew is defensive minded. on the lakers you got the defensive guys in rick fox and horry and bryant to think about. one guy plays mainly offense and the other guys are defense. I'll take Jordan for the offense, Kobe for the defense (more flames). But Kobe is still improving... I think he COULD overtake Jordan in playing ability, but he will certainly never get the hype. David Stern invested too much in Jordan, plus the league is doing too well to warrant doing it again, though I bet he could if he wanted to. [/QUOTE] i think you hate jordan so much because he's actually better than your namesake. Kobe can D up I'll give you that but when he starts having 2.4 steals a game and 5 DEFENSIVE rebounds a game i can't 'take him for D'. you think jordan is all hype...well sorry but there's no conspiracy with the 6 rings he got (maybe the last one but i won't even touch on that). and of course Stern would invest in Jordan. why wouldn't you? he's one of the top FIVE players of all time. period. kobe will get his chance to shine. and kobe DID/DOES get hype. coming out of high school, playing for the lakers. he gets the hype. he's not exactly a player that gets underrated. but all your arguments against jordan doesn't really have much validation except for the case of pippen doing more defensive work. all in all, you hate jordan. i hate a lot of players. but you can't say that jordan was all hype and the man did not achieve anything in his career while saying that kobe will be better than jordan in the long run. give credit to where it's due and live with it.
sted-You had a great post until... Boston plays some hellacious defense. Probably one of the top 5 defenses in all of the NBA. If you put Kobe on Houston, we win 45 games. Fact of the matter is that Kobe has the ability to make others around him better. Right now, Francis only makes Cato better. Kobe makes the scrubs other than Shaq around him, better.
KidRock Funny u say that . . NOw REMOVE KOBE FOR 25 GAMES [not unlike francis and his migraines.] AND THE ROCKETS are a 20 game winner??? [let's say the rockets manage to win 8 games with out Kobe which they could not do without Steve Francis] THEY STILL WOULD ONLY MATCH THIS YEARS RECORD!!!! Basically. . .you are saying Kobe would not make the Rockets any better than Stevie or did you mean that WITH STEVE AND KOBE we'd win 45? Rocket River You've proven my point . .. no shaq. . .Kobe is great but not the greatest
that was what i was saying. you put kobe on our squad in place of steve it'll have the same ending result--lottery bound. our team has far too many scrubs (not even role players) and too little crunch time players. you put kobe on our team the only 2 people that can score is him and cat....which is the same thing as steve and cat to an extent. with the boston theory, the celts seem to play D only when they want to. they have an inconsistent defense in the playoffs so far. but another thing that does not help them is the 3 pt line. they live off of that line. when they're hot, they can take out ANYONE including the lakers. but when they're cold, bricks happen and the opposing team gets fast break chances from those long rebounds.
You all might be wondering how Kobe Bryant wll be without Shaq on his side, right? Well I came up with some statistic comparisons(I'm a statistic type of guy) and found that Kobe's Career #'s are impressive, for the six years he's had Shaquille on his side. And looking at previous Sg's such as Anfernee Hardaway. I've found Anfernee and Kobe's #'s to be quite close to one another. 3 seasons<i>including rookie year</i> For Anfernee Hardaway<b>93/94,94/95,& 95/96 seasons</B> 19.5 ppg 4.7 rpg 7.0 apg 2 spg 37 mpg 31.4 3pt FG% 53.1 FG Efficiency % 76.2 FT% Attempted<b>14.3 FG's</b> a game and made<b>7.1 FG's</B>a game Went to the FT line<b>5.7</B> times/a game and made <B>4.3</B>/a game Thats really quite impressive for Penny. But Kobe's are practically mirror images. Kobe Bryant Career #'s 96-02 19.8 ppg 4.6 rpg 3.8 apg 1.3 spg 32 mpg 31.4 3pt FG% 48.1 FG Efficiency % 82.7 FT% Attempted<b>15.5 FG's</b> a game and made<b>7.1 FG's</B>a game Went to the FT line<b>6.0</B> times/a game and made <B>4.9</B>/a game There are 6 seasons for Anfernee' without Shaq (<i>that for 5 of them were severly hampered</i>) 6 seasons following Shaq's depature Played in 272 games out of a possible 492 46.3 FG efficiency % 30.5 3pt FG% 78.3 FT% 15.9 ppg 35 mpg 5 rpg 4.9 apg 1.7 spg My point here is regardless of Shaquille O'neals 27.6 ppg or his 57.7 FG% or his 12.3 rpg or his 2.3 apg or his 2.6 spg, in 10 season, Shooting Guards can come into games along side Shaq and get some point production. Penny wasn't as good as Kobe and that shows because La has won twice already, while the magic made the playoffs those three years while Shaq and Penny were together, lost the 1st year with a sweep, made the finals the next year(<i>I'm assuming</I>) and made it pretty far in 96. Good even for a 18-18 record in the playoffs. I can go on forever with Stats here, but Kobe isn't the greatest living person to play basketball as some say he can be or he already is, and I doubt he will beat MJ in that race. But as long as Shaq and Kobe are a duo, you'll see them in Finals for years to come. Which doesn't give my Memphis Grizzlies any kind of Hope.
Back to the article...... Does this person know of a center named HAKEEM OLAJUWON? Shaq wet his bed during 95 finals because of "The Dream".
But then he went on to say, "Michael's the greatest player I ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game."
I never said he was "JUST top 50." I said top 50 at least. That doesn't mean I can name 49 plyers who are better than him. Quote: "I think this 'undisputed greatest player ever' stuff is garbage." That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying he's the 50th greatest player ever, only that he is not the best without question. You admit it yourself: "arguments can probably be made ONLY for: bird, chamberlain, and bill russell." (By the way, you could easily argue that Jabbar or Robertson were the best ever, but I won't get into that) You are really getting me wrong here. You seem to believe that I think Jordan was a bad defender. I don't. But there's no way he deserved to be on 9 all-defensive teams. The only real argument I'm making on this point is that Kobe is a better defender. Jordan was very good, I just think Kobe is better. That's all. I'm perfectly aware that Jordan wasn't "All O no D." I know he "played both ends of the floor." Larry Bird shot about 50% career, and he put up some of the most horrendous shots ever (I'm not talking about just clutch shots, I'm talking about all shots). But Bird had McHale and Parrish to clean up, just like Jordan had Grant and then Rodman. Drexler also shot 47.5% career. Shooting 48% doesn't mean you don't put up some ill-advised shots. And your point is... what? I'm wondering which supporting cast was more valuable overall. This statement doesn't clash with anything I said. I never said Jordan wasn't better than Drexler, but consider that Drexler never had a Pippen/Rodman level supporting cast until he got to Houston. You could argue Drexler was just as good. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I know there's no conspiracy. It's called having a better supporting cast than anybody else. You're wrong. Simple as that. Arguments can be made for Bird, Magic, Jabbar, Chamberlain, Russell, Robertson, and some others. It is not undisputed that Jordan is one of the five best ever. I know. Kobe gets A LOT of hype. I never said he didn't. I said Jordan got more. Never said Jordan was all hype. He was a very good player. All I said was he received more hype than any player ever (just try disputing that point), and that as one result he was slightly overrated as a defender. I never said that Jordan did not achieve anything in his career. And finally, I quote myself: "Kobe is still improving... I think he COULD overtake Jordan in playing ability." Are you seriously arguing with this statement?
Kbe is a real good player who has the benefit of playing with the most dominant player in the game. If Shaq wasn't on this team, Kobe would avg 30 but the team wouldn't be as good. Any elite 2 guard would love t trade places with Kobe. Allen,Cater,McGrady, and Pierce would all be mentioned like Kobe with a player like Shaq. Look how much better Drexler looked once he got a chance to play with a dominant center. Kobe is a good player and has a toughness you have to love, but he isn't close to being like Jordan in his prime. To giv you an example is to see Jordn not play for 2 yrs andcome back and avg 25 and had his team in the playoff hunt. In reference to Jordan not being a great defensive player, you never saw a player light Jordan up like guys were doing Kobe last yr. Never!!!!
The Bulls won 57 games in 1993. Then Jordan left and was replaced by CBA journeyman Pete Myers. In 1994 the Bulls won 55 games. Wow. Jordan is worth a whole 2 games! And the Bulls wouldn't have won the championship in 1996 if they hadn't gotten Rodman, the best rebounder in recent history. Rodman made just as much difference as Jordan that year. As for this year's comeback, getting 10th place in the worst conference in history is nothing to gloat about. Jordan averaged 22.9 points, putting up an average of 22.1 shots per game and shooting 41.6%. ANYONE can score 23 a game if they take that many shots. It's called being a ballhog. Look, I explained this before numerous times. Jordan was a very good defender, but not as good as Kobe. Jordan never got lit up because he was never guarding the other team's best player, Pippen was. Even steddinotayto, the guy I'm doing most of my arguing with on this board, admits to this. Of course Jordan never got lit up by Magic Johnson, he was guarding Byron Scott! Of course Jordan never got lit up by Gary Payton, he was guarding Dale Ellis! Of course Jordan never got lit up by Clyde Drexler, he was guarding Jerome Kersey and Terry Porter! Etc, etc, etc. Kobe has to guard T-Mac. Kobe has to guard Carter. Kobe has to guard Stackhouse. Etc, etc, etc.....
Are you serious? I can't ever recall anyone killing Jordan in the post like they do Kobe. Have you ever seen him play successful post D? It's quite horrendous. Teams just don't get to abuse him as much because of Shaq. Hmm, Kobe really checks everyone huh? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Rick Fox was the guy taking all the defensive assignments.
Shaq has Kobe....Kobe has Shaq.......simple as that. No reason to believe that Tmac or Pierce in the same situation Kobe is in wouldn't be doing as well. And I guess we'll all have to wait at least 3 years before we know if Kobe can lead a team year in and year out.
You know, those one or two games Grant Hill played this season was pretty much the Orlando GM's nightmare. They looked awful and confused with each other. It was either the G. Hill show or the TMac show and they showed no cohesiveness. Kinda like the Lakers before Phil...
