Your distinction makes your argument much better, but you didn't mention it in your prior post . Still, I think your wrong. If you truly believe that extramarrital sex is ok between consenting adults, why campaign for strict abstinence? Why not, instead, teach them about the *gravity* of sex? Teach them the significance of sex, why it's important, what happens, and why it shouldn't be taken lightly. Teach them that promiscuity is dangerous. Even suggest that it's impossible to get an STD if you'renot having sex. But strict abstinence programs, imo, generally have a hard time escaping their religious roots. Sex is dirty and cheap, yadda yadda yadda. Go out, start an abstinence program today that teaches abstinence ONLY to avoid STD's, and I'll congratulate you. It will probably be less effective than teaching kids about protection... but oh well, one can't have everything . If threats of fire and brimstone didn't stop kids from having sex, what makes you think that STD's will? I'll tell you, I'd be MUCH more scared of pitchforks and burning lava than herpes . The best we can hope for is SAFE sex. ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited June 01, 2001).]
By that, of course, I mean he seems to know a lot of stuff about things. hee hee hee.... [This message has been edited by BrianKagy (edited June 01, 2001).]
I went to religious schools from K through 12 and I can tell you that they DID preach that sex was wrong. They taught that sex was for the purpose of procreation FIRST and pleasure second. They spent a great deal of time referring to the fact that desire was the reason Adam and Eve fell out of God's good graces. The very fact that Eve ate not from the Tree of Good and Evil but the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was pointed out numerous times. It was doing bad that was as much the problem as knowing bad in the first place. I have no doubt that many abstinence-based programs do good work. However, I think we all know how we felt at 16. For most kids, that represents the peak of their hormonal activity. What they do is decided by them only. However, we can attempt to guide them the right way and then let them make the best decision they can. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Jeff Did they teach that "sex was wrong" or that "sex outside of marriage was wrong"? ------------------
They taught that sex outside of marriage OR for something other than procreation was wrong. Mind you, they didn't believe it because I witnessed several ministers, half a dozen parishoners and numerous classmates' parents (including my own) end up in divorce because of extramarrital affairs. What was hilarious is that one woman was caught cheating on her husband, got divorced and was excommunicated by a preacher who, less than 6 months later, was caught in an affair that had been going on 2 years and was KEPT ON as minister after he begged for forgiveness. What makes it even more ironic was that the woman who was kicked out of the church married her then lover and it was later determined that her husband was an alcoholic who physically abused her and went to prostitutes on a regular basis. She was never allowed back in the church. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited June 01, 2001).]
This just in -- telling kids that "it is wrong to murder" is not working either. Teenage sex is wrong for much the same reason that underage drinking is wrong. Since telling kids that it's wrong to drink before you're 21 is clearly not working (we all know they're going to do it anyway), how bout we instead just tell them it's okay to drink when you're 16, just as long as you don't drive? After all, wouldn't that be preferable to having all the drunken driving fatalities we have now? Much like just preaching "safe sex" could in theory cut down on teenage pregnancy and AIDS, I see this as a way to save lives. It's obviously smarter than the way we're currently handling it. Let's lower the drinking age to 16!
Have Said: Planned Parenthood does that. The problem is most people think all they do there is abortions. Pro-life groups park across the street and write down plate numbers of all cars that visit and send letters home titled "to the parents of" that say your son/daughter is intending to have an abortion. This is even if the visiter was just there buying pills or doing counseling or even just visiting someone. Sorry to get off on a tangent, but those attitudes and tactics of many pro-lifers really screw up some good things that planned parenthood does-like informing people that abstinence is the only 100% effective contraceptive. By the way, I am pro-life. ------------------ "I've been on a calendar, but I've never been on time." -Marilyn Monroe
Haven, read more clearly. I didn't say sex was a base desire. The (implied) subject was teenage sex-- which, given that it occurs among minors and unmarried partners, I consider to be a base desire. You are applying a broad definition of sex where it shouldn't apply. Sex between two consenting adults? No problem, and I don't refer to it as I would sex between two teenagers. It's this overly broad definition that is inconsistent. Do you consider sex between a man and a child to be 'immoral'...? After all, in your post, you're denying me the ability to differentiate between types of sex-- as I was trying to do in calling teenage sex 'base'.
I know a birth control pill that is 100% effective. You hold it between your knees. It's strange how many people think they have to be led around by something other than their brain. Do they need sex as a release? Well, you can always go off quietly by yourself and visit Rosie Palm and her five sisters, as kids have been doing for ages. (But, unlike certain former Surgeon Generals, I wouldn't teach kids how to do it in school. Any kid with half a brain will figure it out on their own if they want to.) I chose abstinence myself, so I don't know the other side of the coin, but my friends who slept around have had a lot of trouble finding satisfying relationships later. They conduct their relationships in reverse - have sex on one of the first few dates, then if you still like each other get to know each other. And they wonder why they have such problems with intimacy. What's wrong with teaching kids self-control, and to learn how to have _relationships_ before they learn how to have sex? I grew up when sex education and "safe sex" were considered all-important. It seemed like there was societal pressure on kids to try it - just use a condom - and that you were supposed to go through this "rite of passage" sometime before you left for college. Popular TV, books, movies, and culture all pointed in this direction. However, when I got to college there were an awful lot of virgins. Guess maybe some people can make it to 18 without sex after all. ------------------ Isabel,clutchcity.net lurker since 1996 All your base are belong to Heypartner.
The fact of the matter remains that abstinence-only teaching does not work. I remember back when I took health back in 10th grade we all got a good laugh at these cheesy abstinence videos they used to show us. We used to make silly comments, giggle and generally piss off the teacher. Very few people take it seriously. Of course abstinence should be encouraged. With the AIDS rate as high as it is today, abstinence is 100% safe. But, suppose you're at a frat house or keg party and you hook up with a hot chick who totally wants to do you. What are you gonna say, sorry, I practice safe sex???? HELLLLLL NOOOO! You find a place then do her like there's no tomorrow. It's better that you did it with a condom than risk contracting an STD. I always carry a condom on me in case of times like that. Good thing too, cause I sure as hell am not ready to become a dad, and I don't want my schlong to turn green and fall off from some stank I did while I was drunk. The point is that if I wasn't educated on safe sex in Fort Bend ISD (Kempner) then I might have knocked up a girl or gotten gonorrhea by now. ------------------ "Oh No..." -Bill Walton in 97 just before Stockton's buzzer beater
I believed until I was 18 that I would go to hell if I visited your friend as did many people with whom I grew up because the church considered it wrong. Of course the old joke is true that 80% of men do it and the other 20% are lying ( ), but that is another matter entirely. I'm not so sure sex is only a release for teens. For boys, there is the whole notion (and peer pressure) of growing up and becoming a "man" that creates the issue. Walking around as a 20-year-old virgin isn't exactly the coolest thing on the planet (trust me on this one). By the same token, the self-image of girls is tied up completely in their looks and sexuality. Girls want to prove their feelings for boys and that is, in many cases, the best way they know how. There is also the fact that 1 in 3 women will be sexually abused by the age of 16, but that again is a separate issue. Add to that the fact that the average age of puberty in women has dropped from around 15 in 1960 to around 11 today and you have a serious problem because those hormones start a lot sooner. I think we should expect people to use their brains and their common sense, but these are teenagers we are talking about. I don't remember being all that rational or sensible during my teenage years and I NEVER got into trouble and, yes, I managed to make it out of my teens without having sex. I did it out of fear but it created all sorts of other problems later many of which are still an issue for me today. My parents worked with kids like these every day for nearly 70 years combined. My father just retired from HISD on Friday. He had been teaching since 1963, long before I was born. He taught MANY pregnant girls because he was part of the hospital homebound program that went to kids' homes when they were out of school. My mom retired from HISD 4 years ago after over 30 years in the district. Most of that time was spent as a high school guidance counselor at a minority-dominated high school where teen pregnancy was a huge issue. Both of them, when I asked them directly, told me that these issues are far too complex to be dealt with simply by telling kids what they can or can't, should or shouldn't do. Many of these boys and girls come from backgrounds where they have little or no stability to begin with. They are forced to grow up VERY early and teen pregnancy may be the least of their worries. My parents, like I, don't know the answers, but they agree that simply telling kids to think and not to have sex won't fix the problem. It might make us feel better to tell them that because then we aren't to blame if they do, but it doesn't address the issue at hand which is kids having sex and girls getting pregnant. I do agree that the importance of abstaining should be stressed because it IS the only 100% effective way to prevent STD's and pregnancy, but that isn't going to fix the problem. And, telling kids that they are wrong when many times they have come from abusive homes or are trapped in a cycle of poverty won't do anything but reinforce the guilt they were handed by their parents if they have any parents to begin with. We have to remember that it is common for the child of a teenage mother to become a teenage mother herself. The point is that there are NO easy answers, no blanket cure and no magic bullet. It takes a whole lot of different approaches to fix a very serious problem. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Hehe, the way I always heard it is that there's two kinds of liars in the world: Men who claimed they have never masturbated, and men who claim they don't anymore. ------------------
I really like what Tex clued in on, one of the main reasons sexual education isn't as effective is because of the way it's taught. Almost none of the programs that are in use ever teach teens about rational thinking and sexual responsibility. ------------------ Ceo of the Walt Williams and Lisa Malosky fan club. My Mockumentary atheistalliance.org
I hadn't heard it that way. Good one! ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
A man I know very well was a virgin until age 37, and was no worse off for it. He also belonged to a church that believed self-stimulation was a serious sin, so he didn't even have that outlet. (Myself, I think it's too much to ask kids to stay away from it... there's nothing about it in the Bible. By the time you're grown, though, it isn't the coolest or most mature thing to do as a habit.) There are obviously a lot of factors in the teen sex/pregnancy situation. There is a lot of pressure on men to prove themselves sexually; we should try to eliminate this idea from our culture, as it's totally unnecessary. The same goes for women: it's true that many of them do focus on their looks or sexuality as a way to get closer to men. Obviously, these things will usually get you a shallow relationship. Obsessing over looks doesn't do any of us girls any favors; most of us aren't going to look like models. Whereas guys eat when they're hungry, we're "required" to obsess over our weight, and if a girl knows she'll never be conventionally pretty, she may always be insecure and feel that she has to make up for it somehow. From a female point of view, the post above (about the fraternity party situation) is a good illustration of why we should not rush into these relationships. Let's reverse the scenario: if I was single and a "hot" guy at the party wanted to "do" me, could I possibly say no? Of course I could! Because I wouldn't want to get in bed with someone, thinking it might be the beginning of a relationship, and find out that he only considered me a "skank he did when he was drunk". I realize that the male sex drive is stronger on average than the female's; this means that the two often want different things from the relationship. People have to be careful... unless they want to use each other and put themselves in very miserable situations. As Jeff said, many teen pregnancies occur in lower-income neighborhoods where kids don't even identify with the perfect all-American model of a family that everyone wants them to believe. They will ignore what they hear in school; reality tells them a different story, and their mothers were often teens themselves. There is a saying that "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". Schools can try, and can certainly provide kids factual information, but they're not who the kid spends the most time with. The best solution would be better parenting - and closer knit communities so someone would be able to step into a child's life if the parents didn't do their jobs. Unfortunately, no government can make this happen. ------------------ Isabel,clutchcity.net lurker since 1996 All your base are belong to Heypartner.
Alright, now that we're on my favorite topic of discussion I have to respond. First, male masturbation is (indirectly) mentioned in the bible as a sin for the same reason that Catholics can't use birth control. The whole story of Onan forbids the ejaculation of semen except for the purpose of insemination. Second, what's with saying masturbation isn't cool or mature once you get older? I really don't get that. I think more people should masturbate. It tends to make people people more comfortable with their body, it lets them know what they like sexually so they can communicate it to their partner, it can spice up sex lives, etc. Many many sex therapists recommend couples masterbate either mutually or separately. All of this doesn't stop when people get older. In fact women don't reach their sexual peak until their 30's, while men are on the decline in this period. So are women supposed to be frustrated, go out and get a young stud, maybe ruin a marriage? Heck no, they should masturbate more! Masturbation never ceases to be a healthy outlet for sexual excitement. You'll never get a disease, never get pregnant, always have a good time, so I really just don't understand how it gets less mature with age. Man, i should be the new surgeon general. Elders don't have nothing on me. ------------------
dylan: One thing to point out... The concept that women reach their sexual peak at 30 and men at 18 is not related to their abilities or desire. That is a fact that has always been mis-used. Actually, women reach the height of sexual potency (the ability to conceive) at 30 while men hit theirs at 18. It doesn't mean sexual desire peaks at that point. Also, a stat that important to point out is that studies have found that far fewer women masturbate then men. On average, only 40 to 50% of women masturbate as compared to 80% of men. Big difference. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
