I can see that Christianity, in all its glory, would be great. But the people practicing Christianity annoy the heck out of me. I think that's what rhester was getting at.
I think you may have misunderstood my offer. I’m not offering to “give you the answers.” The spiritual journey is a personal one and every person has to find their answers on their own. It does help, however, to hear other people talk about their journeys because some of it will probably overlap with your journey, but you’re the only one who will know what parts do and what parts don’t. With respect to who are good people to talk to, if you’ve had issues with organised religion and the failings of the church then I would highly recommend talking to lay people as well. With all due respect to our minister friends here they are trained a certain way and they tend to sound churchy and preachy. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing but if you have a negative reaction to that approach then talk to someone else. Some of the most powerful messages for me came from “real people” who were telling their personal stories. It doesn’t have to be me, of course, and if you’re still cranky about the other thread then I’m probably not the person to talk to. Max is one I’d suggest but I’m sure there are others here, and elsewhere. Also, the spiritual journey is an internal one and it’s not provable in traditional ways. It’s not non-experiential, though, and there are most definitely forms of evidence and logic all along the path. How can you prove a painting is beautiful, for example? There is no proof for that in the traditional sense, and yet you know it. You experience it, and other people will too, although not in exactly the same way. Like a painting, spirituality needs to be engaged to be experienced. If you look at a painting in a detached way you will likely not be moved by it or see anything in it other than whatever it is on its face. If you engage the painting, however, then all kinds of moods, deeper feelings and insights become possible. Faith is the same way. It’s (typically) not going to knock you over the head out of the blue. You have to seek it, and IMO if you seek you will find, although the path is not always short and it’s usually not easy.
Good post and well put especially the part about appreciating a painting. I agree that there is logic and experience to faith but its one that is primarily internal to the one experiencing it. I don't believe its something that can be expressed or understood in an objective detached manner but like Grizzled said must be experienced. Martian Man, I hear your frustration and I think you're trying to judge Faith on terms that it can't be judged and is inevitably self defeating. My understanding of Christianity is that in many ways the details aren't as important as the overall message and while there are contradictions in specifics the general is consistent. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here) Speaking as a Non-Christian I think one of the most profound lines from the Bible is "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's." Even though that speficially relates to taxes I read that as saying to pay heed to what is secular and what is religious. Living in a society and culture with both I think we can accept and appreciate faith without being caught up in trying to rationalize it. OTOH if we're going to try to run our society according to the specific dictates of a particular religion that's something I would argue against.
"Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and render unto God what is God's." Word on the street is that this passage aint in GWB's bible, ya know the one he reads everyday.
A beautiful post, Grizzled. The same could apply to a Hindu, a Sikh, a Muslim, or an anamist. I'm agnostic, myself, but I'm one of those people that can be very emotionally moved by a great work of art, or a sunset in beautiful setting. I'll bookmark this. Keep D&D Civil!!
Yea, well, cults invoke the same feelings. So do drugs. What is the difference between a cult and Christianity? Nothing.
I love Jesus, and I try to emulate him to the best of my abilities, for he is a role model that is worth emulating. But I am not a Christian
The Christian concept of man's need before a Just God is not that of a role model. If you are convicted of murdering 30 innocent people with a butcher knife a good judge and jury are probably not going into the punishment phase of the trial considering your primary punishment being the assignment of a role model. I would not look for a role model where you need a savior. That is like drowning in the ocean and wishing you had someone there to show you how to do it right.
Under blue moon I saw you So soon you’ll take me Up in your arms Too late to beg you or cancel it Though I know it must be the killing time Unwillingly mine Fate Up against your will Through the thick and thin He will wait until You give yourself to him In starlit nights I saw you So cruelly you kissed me Your lips a magic world Your sky all hung with jewels The killing moon Will come too soon Fate Up against your will Through the thick and thin He will wait until You give yourself to him
FOUR GREAT RELIGIOUS TRUTHS 1- Muslims do not recognize Judaism as a religion. 2- Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. 3- Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian faith. 4- Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters
Thanks. I can’t speak about all the other religions you mention but don’t think anyone should be afraid to humbly seek “truth” in that spiritual journey. In fact that’s exactly what you should do IMO. From a Christian standpoint the Bible says “seek and you will find” (Matt 7) so there can be no objection from a Christian standpoint to a person genuinely seeking spiritual truth. The spiritual journey is a little different than recognising beauty in a painting in that you are responding to and following that voice within you. Even that voice is different for different people though. For some it’s the question “is this all there is?” For others it relates to injustice, pain, hurt, futility. At some point I think all of these and others call us to face into and engage the question of our existence, and to seek the fuller picture of who we are.
I disagree with you on this. Cults try to make people conform. They don’t want you thinking for yourself. Their religions focus on the external, on fear and rules and conformity. Drugs are also a way to escape yourself. You are altering your state of mind. The spiritually journey is at its core completely personal. It’s between you and God. It’s about a real heightened self-awareness, not a diminished or artificially altered one. It’s about the real you and ultimately it’s just between you and God.
But you’ve got it backwards. Jesus did what he did because he was operating in a spirit of faith by the Spirit of God. Jesus taught about justification by faith and not works, right? So if you want to emulate Jesus then you should seek God and seek a relationship and an ever deeper relationship with God. That’s what Jesus did. The good comes from that. Jesus didn’t do good deeds because he knew they were good deeds. He did them because that’s who he was. They were/are an expression of his heart.
