I agree with grummet and DREAMer... I mean it depends on the age of your child, and their own level of perception and understanding... as a parent you have to be in touch with that. And at a certain age children can handle what a kiss of passion means in contrast with a "good night as mommy tucks you in bed kiss." At the same time, adults in a highly kid populated place need to respect that not everyone in the crowd is a consenting adult, or that every kid understands a kiss of passion, much less ANY sexuality, whether it's hetero- or homo-... and it IS the parents' responsibility, privilege, and right if at all possible to teach that child when they feel it is time. Now I will give you this... often children are taught based on what has already happened, or by what they've already seen, and the parent explains things to them... but at a ball game in public, no parent should have to explain anything sexual in nature. And a kiss can sometimes be more sexual in nature than even the act of intercourse. To take it to an etreme on the "hiding realties of life" theme... Napalm burns peoples flesh off their bones, but I hope my son doesn't ever learn that at a young age before he first figures out how to deal with death or violence... I know it's a strange analogy but hopefully my point is there... That is what parents do. In order to really parent, you must stay in tune with where your child is socially, and on every level. As far as what the Dodgers did... I think maybe they did get off light, but I also commend the couple for not pressing for more and tying up the courts with an otherwise shut case... And hopefully in the future other couples, no matter the sexual preference, will observe rules of common courtesy and decency. Call me a stick in the mud, but baseball is about everything Pole mentioned except for the last entry. Now Howard Stern on the other hand... but then your young kids don't watch that... do they? ------------------ Proud Father of the Rockets' future point guard.
According to the LA Times column below, it was a french kiss. (Mentions there was no "groping.") A proper response (in my opinion) is to pull the couple aside, tell them that there have been some complaints, and then let them return to their seats. Not kick them out of the ballpark without letting them even go back for their belongings after sending a team of security guards to confront two sober and non-violent women. Kudos to the Dodgers for realizing this and swiftly making amends. Thursday, August 24, 2000 Home Edition Section: Sports Page: D-1 BILL PLASCHKE; Dodgers Don't Kiss This Off Graziano made the right move with apology to lesbian couple after their ejection from stadium. By: BILL PLASCHKE Before beginning this story of the seventh-inning smooch, let's get one thing straight. If the Dodgers wanted to throw somebody out of Dodger Stadium for lewd conduct, it should have been Adrian Beltre and Mark Grudzielanek for that awful eighth inning Sunday. Of course, that's only baseball, and baseball is once again the least of their problems. You may have heard by now that Wednesday afternoon, the Dodgers publicly apologized for an Aug. 8 ejection of lesbians Danielle Goldey and Meredith Kott from Dodger Stadium. They weren't thrown out because they were publicly cursing like the guys behind them. Or flashing a laser pointer like the guy in front of them. Or acting drunk and silly like several people around them. Or imitating the crude off-field behavior of some of the athletes they were cheering. They were thrown out because they kissed. It was a French kiss, the women acknowledge, but witnesses say it was nothing blatant or inappropriate. "The Dodgers were hitting home runs, and everybody was hugging and kissing, and it wasn't a big deal," said Johnny Munoz, a fan who filmed some of the incident. For two fans, though, it was too much. They complained to a security guard. They reportedly said they, "didn't want their kids around those kind of people." The guards caved. They summoned the women from their seats. The crowd booed and cursed the guards. An incident was brewing, so the guards ordered the women to leave, humiliating them in front of friends and co-workers. While waiting outside the gates for friends to retrieve their stuff, with fans looking and pointing, the women were so uncomfortable they hid behind a booth. "Then, of all things, I saw some friends from high school, and I had to explain to them why I was standing outside," recalled Goldey. "It was horrible." They drove home. A disconsolate Goldey ended the evening locked in her bathroom. It was a bad night. "I have been a Dodger fan my whole life," said Goldey, 30, the marketing and advertising director for a local software firm. "I remember where I was the night Kirk Gibson hit his home run. I felt like part of the Dodger family. Then, all of a sudden, I felt like I was kicked out of the family." Just as suddenly, the Dodgers fixed it. Faced with the threat of a lawsuit, a threat that shouldn't have been necessary, they nonetheless did the right thing. Bob Graziano, in perhaps his most important public act as Dodger president, drove to West Hollywood Wednesday to apologize. His house is the most diverse, inclusive sporting arena in town. He wants to keep it that way. Good for him. "We want everybody in this entire city to feel comfortable coming out here, regardless of their ethnicity or gender or socioeconomic background," Graziano said. "We wouldn't have asked a heterosexual couple to leave, but we did with the lesbian couple . . . and that was an error in judgment. "We want people to be able to come here and feel like they belong here." The women accepted the apology, charity tickets, undisclosed sum of money and promise of sensitivity training with grace. "The Dodgers were sorry, they stepped up to the plate and then some," said Goldey. "For Bob Graziano to come out there personally meant a lot to me. I will be going to more Dodger games this year." Case closed, right? Not even close. Anyone who regularly attends sporting events in this town understands that the issue of openly-diverse-lifestyles-in-the-next-row will always be here. There is nothing more flamboyant, however, than the irony. Some don't mind sitting next to tattooed guys with shaved heads at Laker games, but are frightened by the quiet lesbian couple at the end of the row at Spark games. Some who laugh at the obscene chants at a King game will tsk-tsk the gay couple holding hands at the Dodger game. Many who accuse homosexual couples of lewd behavior at sports events accept that same behavior from heterosexuals. Certainly, it is inexcusable to behave in a sexually inappropriate manner in public places no matter what the sexual orientation. A couple of years ago, the Dodgers properly summoned the police to arrest a heterosexual couple for having sex under a blanket during a game. Equally wrong were the women at a recent Spark game who upset a friend's children by making suggestive remarks about the players. Danielle Goldey understands. "If we started disrobing, started feeling each other up, that would be inappropriate," she said. "We knew there were kids around. We know there are things you don't do in public. My mother raised me to know right from wrong." The bigger issue here is how, at public places such as sporting events, some people paint heterosexual behavior with one brush, and homosexual behavior with another. A young heterosexual couple holding hands in the front row is cute . . . while that lesbian couple holding hands behind them is lewd. A quick peck that turns into a kiss after a home run by the older couple in the box seats is sweet . . . while the same act by a lesbian couple is considered raw sex. These are the views of an immature, narrow-minded society. Isn't the greatness of Los Angeles based on the notion that we've grown beyond that here? Hasn't the diversity at our sports venues and the comfort we find there, been the best example of that growth? Despite our reputation for a lack of passion, we are known for having among the smartest, most sophisticated fans in the country. Cheering somebody with the morals of Dennis Rodman while fretting over somebody kissing after a home run is not smart. A couple Dodger Stadium guards made that mistake. They will not make it again. Neither should we. ------------------ [This message has been edited by wrath_of_khan (edited August 26, 2000).]
Great post DREAMer. I'm sorry if I was on attack mode with you there. I guess I just misinterpreted your first post in this thread as being hostile (or at least unfriendly) towards gays. I'm glad I was wrong and I apologize. As a gay person myself, I've been feeling a bit defensive lately, especially after watching this disturbing program about Eminem's lyrics on MTV. I would like to applaud Jeff for consistently defending the rights of gays and lesbians in this forum. It gives me hope that more straight people will be as accepting. I sincerely thank you for your compassion.
My pleasure. I have known MANY gay and lesbians in my life. I've worked with them, played in bands with them and have numerous gays and lesbians living on my block. Good for you, outlaw, for being who you are. Lying to ourselves and the world about who we are is a detriment to society. There is SO little love in the world that to deny any form of love is not just wrong, it is bad for us as a society. I agree that violence seems accepted but love between two people is rejected if they are of the same gender. It reminds me of a sorta cheesy but to-the-point lyric from a band I used to see play all the time: "I watched TV just the other day, And there's one thing that I must say. How come people on television's wierd in the head? They won't show sex but they show a lot of killin'. I guess it must be better to show blood spillin', Then to let little junior see two naked people in bed." ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited August 26, 2000).]
I don't think it's as simple as saying the world needs more love. What if three people love each other? What if a man loves a boy? What if a man loves a sheep? You have to explain why homosexuality is different from these scenarios. (And before you say "consent," let me point out that a threesome is consensual.) I believe monogamous, committed gay relationships should be treated essentially like monogamous, committed straight relationships, on the grounds that all the morals are the same, and the only difference is orientation (which I believe is largely genetic). But I don't believe all "love" should be encouraged in private or tolerated in public.
Will: You are defining "sex" rather than "love". You make the assumption that a man loving a boy or a sheep is wrong because it involves sex. Men love their sons. Some people have sheep as pets. I know what you mean, but I was not talking about sex or a relationship that is unhealthy. The love is not the problem. It is the choice of lovers (at least in your examples) that can create problems. A pedophile or a practicioner of bestiality isn't necessarily expressing their love through their acts of sexuality. For many, in fact, it is the exact opposite. In the case of three people, if they are consenting adults, I don't see the issue. Many of these would not be considered an expression of love because most don't turn their sexual experience into a long-term relationship, but so what if they do? As adults, we have responsibility to each other and to ourselves. If we are not violating that responisibility by having an open relationship because all of those involved agree, I see no problem with it. Just because it isn't considered normal doesn't give us the right to judge. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
Jeff -- I don't disagree with you about the equal treatment of couples in public places regardless of sexual orientation. But I don't think non-judgmentalism serves that cause well, even if raw sex isn't involved. Example 1: A threesome is french-kissing at a Dodgers game. Example 2: Angelina Jolie and her brother are french-kissing at a Dodgers game. A baseball game is a place where parents are supposed to be able to bring their kids. What would you do in the above scenarios? If the Dodgers threw out the kissers for refusing to stop, should the Dodgers be required to apologize or pay damages? Rightwingers love to argue that if homosexuality is allowed, anything (consensual) goes. I think it's a moral and political mistake to lend credence to that argument.
I still think it comes down to what the community deems offensive. At this point, I don't think you can expect an act that only 5% of the population would even consider engaging in to automatically be acceptable to the other 95%. Whether two people love each other is not the issue, what is offensive to the majority of the population is. No rights are being violated here. ------------------ "I am NOT ****ing Kip Winger, okay? You want to talk about rock & roll, I'll sit there all day, as long as someone's buying the drinks. But don't expect me to be like everybody else. If you want an amusing anecdote, talk to Mark Slaughter. I'm sure he'll say something like, 'Yeah, we had a couple of lite beers and ran down the hall in our underwear. Whoooooo!'" - Chris Robinson, Black Crowes, Rolling Stone, January 24, 1991 Metal Sludge
It wasn't too long ago when an interracial couple (like DREAMer and his wife) kissing or even holding hands in public would have similarly offended the "majority". In some places in this country that still holds true (see Bob Jones University). [This message has been edited by outlaw (edited August 27, 2000).]
I think the percentage of the population who doesn't mind seeing two women making out is probably far higher than 5%. Judging by the selection at the porno store I frequent (I just go for the articles. I swear... Wait, that doesn't make any sense), I'd have to say that watching two women making out is very popular. ------------------
Will: I guess I wasn't talking about public displays of that affection. The only thing you can go with there is "community standards" which, as outlaw pointed out, are constantly in flux. mrpaige: LOLOLOLOL!!!! I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. ------------------ Save Our Rockets and Comets SaveOurRockets.com
