1. the rockets didn't play the suns in 93...they played the clippers and the sonics. in 94 we had homecourt advantage and blew big leads laste in both games...and came back and won. in 95 we did not have homecourt advantage. phoenix smacked us around to go 3-1...and we came back and won. 2. munro had good stuff last night. he was going through the best offense in the NL pitching a shutout through 4...getting tough hitters out. he was outpitching morris by a wide margin. he made one mistake...and they pulled him. that was a mistake in my book. he had pitched out of trouble throughout the night. if you had some hammers in the bullpen you could turn to, fine...but you don't. 3. i don't pretend to be a smarter baseball guy than garner. but i still think he made a mistake there. 4. it's all good...the astros will come back and take this series.
This is the thing, he's taking guys out before they've even had a bad game yet. Munro had given up all of 2 runs. Backe had pitched an excellent game. He's trying to manage the game instead of letting his players win it. And clearly it's not working. I don't care that he tried it, what, 4x now, and failed everytime. But you have to stop doing something that is not working. That's the bottom line.
I know that they played the Suns in 94 (i changed it to 93-94)... and I explained that this scenario was more similiar to the Suns in 95. Also, Munro made more than one mistake. Walk, Homer, Single. He may have gotten out of it... but he may not have. That's why you go by things like stats and law of averages. The stats said that Harville had a much better chance of getting Rolen out, than a guy who was facing him for the 3rd time tonight, and who looked like one who didn't have much left. The hitters were catching up to him... but, I guess if you want to see a guy control his own fate... I can understand that. Garner just wanted to get out of that inning with the lead still intact.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=second/guessing Why did they do that? Thursday, October 14 David Schoenfield: Well, kids, I'm so mad at Phil Garner at right now I can barely type. My hands are shaking in disgust. Which are more than Brad Lidge's hands can say. They sat idle in the bullpen, unused, while a stiff named Dan Miceli got tattooed across the Mississippi. Can you dare defend Garner's moves in Game 2? Do you dare? Because I'm ready and willing to attack ... Eric Neel: I can't defend him. I can wonder whether he had money on St. Louis tonight, but I can't defend him. Lidge hadn't pitched in Game 1. Miceli had been lit up by Atlanta. (And, oh by the way, the Cardinals are just a little bit more potent than the Braves.) Lidge should have been in there in the eighth. Period. You'd gotten everything else you could have hoped for ... Pete Munro got it to the mid-point, Beltran and Co. had put up some runs, Lidge was your one strong card left to play, your one advantage in a moment when you were expected to be down and out. You have to press your advantage. You have to try to steal this game and keep the series alive. David: Let me quote my good buddy Will Shakes, who probably would have made a nice lefty out of the pen for the Astros: "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them. And some, like Brad Lidge, baseball's most dominating reliever the second half of the season, don't get a chance to be great, and are left unused in a tie game." Grrr. The game is tied 4-4, bottom of the 8th, St. Louis has up some guys named Pujols, Rolen and Edmonds, who aren't exactly a trio of yahoos. So Garner, in all the wisdom he displayed in nine consecutive losing seasons managing the Brewers and Tigers, brings in Miceli. Can they just name Bagwell and Biggio player-managers? Look, here are three reasons this move is 100 percent wrong: Miceli stinks. The heart of the order is up. You need your best pitcher in there. Garner had proved earlier, against Atlanta, when he brought in Lidge in the seventh that he wouldn't fall into the conventional, "save your closer for ninth inning when you have the lead" bullcrap. Except he never got the lead. And don't even get me started about the fifth and sixth innings. Eric: I will say this, though: There's a pretty good chance we'd be talking about 2-0 no matter who Garner brought in and no matter when he did it. At some point in each of these two games the Astros were going to have to take their chances with the Micelis and Harvilles of the world (assuming they couldn't count on Lidge to go five innings or so), and that likely means that at some point Rolen, Pujols, and Walker were going to go baba-da-bing! On some level, this series, and these two games in particular, were determined in the Atlanta series, when the Astros had to trot out Oswalt for Game 5. David: Grrrr. Eric: The strange thing, as you say, is that Garner was willing to break the mold and bring Lidge in in the seventh against Atlanta, and now he was back to stone-age managing, going with Miceli, as if using Lidge in this spot, as a setup man, might somehow magically transform him into one. David: OK, you may be right about your previous point, but Garner didn't help himself with the way he managed the fifth. Here's an IM exchange Eric and I had as the fifth inning was unfolding: davidschoenfield: I'm going on the record with this now: Don't fool around, Munro should not face Walker with a runner(s) on. Lefties tattooed Munro to a .337/.389/.587 tune this year. ericneel: was it walker who hit the home run? ericneel: i missed it. davidschoenfield: you didn't, and neither did walker ericneel: gotta get him out of there now, my dollar be damned ericneel: ohmygod ... that was a terrifying shot from rolen davidschoenfield: look, you've got the WORST starting pitcher to start a playoff game in the last decade. he's horrible, he's been horrible for two months. you're up 3-0, fifth inning, runner on, meat of the order up. GET HIM OUT. Why play with fire? Now, I know the problem -- you don't really have any relievers to go to. Well, shoot, bring in Lidge ... Graham Hays: I hate to play Devil's Advocate with this bunch of omnipotent second-guessers, but it's not as if Garner brought in Bobby Ayala to face the heart of the St. Louis order. Say what you want -- and I know you will -- about Dan Miceli, but he posted a 3.59 ERA in 77.2 innings this season and a 3.20 ERA in 70.1 innings last season. Not to mention right-handed hitters hit under .200 against him this season, and he was outstanding in September. Garner saw what happened when he brought in Lidge too early against the Braves. Russ Springer happens. And let's not crucify him for failing to be an innovator in the crucible of postseason play. Does it make sense to save your best pitcher for the ninth inning when the other team's best hitters are due up in the eighth inning? No, but EVERY manager does it. Eric: Those are decent numbers, G, you're right, but by the eighth (which Garner and the whole team should have been ecstatic to reach in as good a shape as they did), with Lidge rested, there is no reason to even wonder what Miceli's numbers are, because all you have to know is that they are nowhere near Lidge's numbers. David: Graham, who do think you are, Dave Schoenfield, throwing around stats like that?!? OK, Miceli is better than I realized. Of course, I know one manager who wouldn't have managed like that -- Mr. Joe Torre. Look, I'm not saying Lidge is Mo Rivera, but Torre always brings in Rivera into a game like that. (Well, except for the Jeff Weaver Incident in last year's World Series.) Most importantly, you can't lose a close game without getting at least one meaningful inning from your best reliever, no matter how good or mediocre the rest of the pen is. Eric: Here's what happened when Lidge went two-and-a-third against Atlanta: He struck out three, walked one, gave up one earned run ... one really damaging double. I'd have taken my chances that he could do even better tonight, especially with his wicked fast stuff busting through rain drops. I wonder if Garner is feeling snakebit for that usage, a usage that went well, but not well enough, as it turned out, for the Astros to win. Is he still backtracking from that move? Could he be that concerned with how that move was received? I'm not even pointing fingers at this point, I'm just trying to understand a fellow human being who truly mystifies me right now ... David: Hey, Mr. Smartypants, I'd like you to defend Garner's bunt in the sixth. Two on, nobody out, trailing 4-3. Meanwhile, your skip over your two best pinch-hitters -- Mike Lamb and Jason Lane, both of whom can hit it out of the park -- and they never get in the game. Who bunts trailing by a run? Graham: Come on Dave, you know you'll never catch me defending a bunt. But look, if we're going to start blaming managers, how about putting a little heat on Jimy Williams for the baserunning work he did with this team in spring training? If the Astros hadn't run themselves out of scoring opportunities early in the game, Miceli's souvenirs might have just made Astros fans nervous instead of nauseous. There were nine innings in this game, and the Astros made mistakes or missed opportunities in just about all of them. So let's throw Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Jeff Kent and up there on the pyre with Mr. Garner. Eric: Good point, G. I'm thinking particularly of Bagwell getting caught off first on that botched steal play. Did he have a flashback? Did he think he was Jeff Bagwell circa 1992? Did he think, like all of us do, that it would be cool to be Carlos Beltran? First question for Bagwell after the game: Hey Jeff, It's raining here, and in this world, you're old. What's it like where you are?
Yep, Everyone is questioning Garner around the country.... And rightfully so...if he wins the world series he gets a pass on all this quirky managing, if he loses, he gets to go home. DD
If i was rich and owning the team without a doubt I would fire Garner. If we do lose this series that 8th inning move just cost him a shot to managing the club next year. Phil Garner.....You're fired!!
I wouldn't fire him, but he's overmanaging the team, I mean it's 3-2 in the 4th and he pulled the pitcher for a bunch of scrubs who have done nothing. At least Munro was hitting spots and getting people out. He was practically pitching the game of his life out there. And he got pulled. Garner is not doing what got him here. Was he pulling Munro in the 4th during the regular season. Not likely. Was he using Lidge in the 7th. Not likely. Stick to what got you here. Like I said before. I don't care if you try something. But after it fails 3 or 4 times give it up. Atlanta proved our bullpen is terrible. So that means our starters are gonna have to suck it up. If they lose they lose, but give it a try, let them pitch. As for miceli. I have no problem with him coming in. At least he's been decent this year. But now that's he's failed. I wouldn't come back to him. He proved he wasn't up to the task, One HR ok. Two HR not ok. He got hammered in the clutch. I'd go to wheeler or Lidge right now. due or die. At least they are hot.
Yea... he was actually pulling him in the 3rd... and it had worked. That's the only reason he was doing it last night. But, as everybody says... you either change things up in the playoffs, or you do whatever got you there... and if neither of them works, you're screwed either way anyways.
In 19 starts, Munro was pulled before the 6th inning 14 times and pulled before the 7th inning 18 times. Only once did Munro pitch past the 6th this year.
At the time of his removal, he was getting hit around, and his history says that he wasn't going to keep shutting them down like he had been. Here is Munro's last few starts during the regular season: Sept 25th against Milwaukee: they score 4 runs in the 5th inning Sept 18th against Milwaukee: they score 5 runs in the middle innings Sept 10th against Pittsburgh: they score 2 runs in the middle innings Sept 5th against Pittsburgh: 2 runs in the middle innings August 30th against Cincy: they score 3 runs in the middle innings August 25th against Philly: they score 1 run in the middle innings August 20th against Cubs: they score 4 runs in the middleinnings Roughly, thats an ERA around 9 for Pete in the middle innings. Its not coincidence that Munro tends to get hit hard in the middle innings. That just happens to be the time that the 3rd time around the lineup. Munro's history clearlly says that he can sometimes fool a lineup during the first few innings, but he will almost always get hit around before the 7th hits. Last night, he pitched well, but he still had allowed alot of baserunners through 4 1/2 innings.
The biggest issue (and really on the only major mistake he made yesterday) was not using Lidge in the 8th. What makes it worse is he had been using Lidge in games like that previously. He did it in Atlanta and then in his explanation was I've been doing it all along and I'll do it again (In reality he actually hadn't been putting Lidge in in the 7th, but he had in the 8th). Well, this time he didn't do it again. He changed the way he managed, and I'm not sure why. If it was from all the second guessing before then I think he should have been consistent. If he honestly felt Micelli was looking good and a had a shot of getting those guys out (they were a combined 3 for 17 off of him), then he made a gut move which backfired. Making gut moves got the Astros here, so it's at least reasonable (even if it was incredibly stupid).
Elienator, I think thats a very reasonable post. Garner does appear to be second guessing himself and I don't think anyone could blame him for doing so.
Well, if the move was him second guessing himself, I can't blame him for the ripping he's received, but I think that's a mistake. To manage effectively I think he needs to avoid the second guessing of himself. If he made the move on gut (then it was stupid as many have pointed out) but Micelli did have good numbers against those guys. If he made the move on gut at least it's understandable since that's how he's been going for the last 2 months. We have a manager that is a good motivator and knows how to play the game. If we could get him a bench coach that was a good tactician they would make a good pair I think.
What I mean to say, is I could understand why Garner would second guess himself when every move seems to backfire. If that's why he didn't put in Lidge I'd be pretty disappointed.
Elienator, I think Garner was going with the percentages last night and thinking ahead to extra innings since it was a tie game. IMO, Garner doesn't go with his gut too often, except for baserunning. Him bringing Lidge in last night, would have been more about his gut than percentages.
I disagree. I think the conventional logic in that situation when you have a closer that can go 2 is to put him in. Look at how Atlanta uses Smoltz, how the Yankees use Rivera, how the Dodgers use Gagne, and how the Astros have used Lidge (in the Atlanta series and before). This was the opposite of what he has done in the past and the opposite of what he said he would do during the Braves series. I can only conclude he some sort of gut feeling to do the opposite here. Conventional playoff logic says when the meat of your lineup is coming up in the top of the ninth and the meat of their lineup is coming up in the bottom of the 8th in a tie game, and you have a closer that can pitch 2, you use him. This even makes more sense when you know you have a day off the next day and your closer has had a few days off. If he doesn't think Beltran, Bagwell, Berkman can mount a rally, who is he expecting to win the game for him? Why think ahead to extra innings? You have your best shot to win it right there in the top of the ninth, you go for it. Otherwise you can wind up losing the game without your best pitcher ever throwing a pitch.
Elienator, Again, I don't disagree that Lidge should have been in there. But it wasn't a horrible move sending in your setup man who had a pretty dominant September (0.86 ERA) to keep it in a tie game. I said last night that I think Garner had Lidge ready and would have pulled Miceli as soon as he allowed a baserunner or two. I don't think Garner anticipated Miceli giving up back to back HRs on consecutive pitches.
