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The Eat Crow Thread

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by rocketsjudoka, Oct 11, 2023.

  1. Stephen66

    Stephen66 Member
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    Duster still has time to screw the pooch. There's no Click keeping him in check. Happy the Stros are winning, but Duster is still the manager.
    Hopefully we win it all and he retires.
     
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  2. BlindHog

    BlindHog Member

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    Perhaps I can help you sort out your catching conundrum. I recently decided I had mischaracterized the role of catchers in the scheme of things. I had mistakenly grouped them with position players when they clearly belong with the pitchers. That is why there is a difference in their actual value and what their statistics add up to. We are looking at the stats of hitters when measuring the value of catchers. Even when pitchers hit in the National League nobody really expected them to compete at the plate the way a first baseman or an outfielder might. When you measure pitchers and catchers value what they contribute as a base runner or a hitter is basically irrelevant. Zach Greinke has been a very good hitter as pitchers go but he would never be confused with an actual hitter. Diaz has shown the hitting skills to be a position player but we have not seen enough of him to judge his value as a starting catcher.
     
  3. Stephen66

    Stephen66 Member
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    It don't matter. I'm not like Duster, I'd rather win than be right.
     
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  4. prs325

    prs325 Member

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    Taste like chicken...
     
  5. Nook

    Nook Member

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    That’s probably a safe statement as well.

    The game is a lot different than it was - the post season is no longer a continuation of the regular season, not with more rounds and an extra wild card.

    The post season is an entirely different animal at this point and the approach is different. Some of the success is likely that the front office has more input in line ups and roster configurations in the post season with the Astros. Regardless, the relationship between the Astros and Baker has worked very well in the post season.

    The Astros for years, have built their teams for the post season.

    The Braves (105), Dodgers (101), Orioles (101), Rays (98) and Brewers (92) - all have been eliminated.

    The Astros (90), Phillies (90), Rangers (90) and Diamondbacks (84) all have moved on.

    My point is that it is roster construction for 162 games is less important now than ever before - and smart teams can focus on basically 20 game post season construction…. And it is possible that carries over to managers as well.

    Or it could be luck -
     
  6. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I agree with your premise - but in fairness he does look at analytics and numbers but he will not always bow down to numbers and some sometimes he is proven right and sometimes he is wrong.

    He has made decisions that I would not have made. I would not have had Maldonado start as much for example and I would have had Chas out there 150 times. However, I have not been a professional player and coach and manager for 50 years.
     
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  7. ac in austin

    ac in austin Contributing Member

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    You should be a politician. I’m positive you have no idea what you are talking about but you sound like you do.
     
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  8. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    I'm firmly, 100%, in the Play Diaz More camp. But the entire premise of those upset he didn't play more is that he absolutely would've succeeded had he played more, and the Astros, thus, would've won more games - and that's just not true. As good as Diaz was this year, he failed ~70% of the time. ALL the players do. Him going 0-6 with 4 Ks - which sucks for the team - is nonetheless a stark reminder of this.

    So... yes. I will stand on it.

    I'm asking this sincerely: how has it handicapped them? I know the immediate answer is you think they would've won more regular season games - but why is that important *now*? They won their division. They earned the bye. They've won another LDS. It's kind of like you wanting to drive really fast but we both end up stopped at the same red light, you know? Maybe they made it harder on themselves - but they still ended up *exactly* where we wanted them to be.

    I would rate my concern over Framber's performance significantly higher by a wide margin over who plays catcher, to be perfectly honest. If he can't figure it out, I think they're going to struggle with longer series.

    If you're implying this is Baker's fault... again, they patched this together as best they could. Verlander left; they expected McCullers to contribute; they lost Garcia and Urquidy early... No one wants to hear it because they want to scream about Dusty Baker - but health and depth were their biggest issues this year. I would guess.... 95+% of the Baker complaints are rooted in those two issues.

    We've watched scores of guys leave for years. I think it's starting to catch up to them a little bit. They're older; they're not as deep...
     
  9. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    Four years ago turned into 2 years ago. He pitched 3 games between the '19 short-rest game and following 2 seasons..

    If JV felt confident, cool. Let him pitch.

    But he clearly sucked early on, then management allowed him to continue the labored-struggle for 40 more pitches after the struggle first began.

    Trust JV, right?

    Dusty didn't bother playing Diaz -- the better option based on stats -- with JV at least one time.
     
  10. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
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    Framber appears to be shot for the remainder of the season.

    Framber needed rest but never got any.

    Blame management (Dusty included).

    Dusty had no problem benching Tucker after he was "available" in the third game vs SEA @MMP --- 2-game swing.

    Astros were lucky AF the final days of the season played out like it did. Otherwise, it's France or Brown pitching to open the playoffs -- assuming Astros make the playoffs -- because JV and Javier aren't available and Framber would be pitching with even less rest than he already needed.

    So yeah, talk all your Diaz "we don't know" rhetoric. Play your best players and better outcomes tend to happen.
     
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  11. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    I would not read too much into the Astros winning only 90 games. The Astros roster could have won 94-95 games if they just played their best players more even with the injuries. As the roster currently sits with Brantley back and Abreu healthy, the Astros are a f%^&ing juggernaut that should crush teams regular season and postseason. I think the postseason has some luck, but having ToR starters, and high leverage relievers is more important in the postseason. On batters, being able to hit velocity and spin is important. I also think winning the division is a free series win and incredibly important for sustained postseason success.

    Of the great regular season teams, the Braves and Rays are really good. The Rangers were incredibly unlucky to only win 90. Rays were unfortunate to have to play the Rangers. The Braves will do better in the future, and did very well in 2021 in the postseason. I will say the Phillies probably have a roster built for the postseason that shouldn't be as good in the regular season (unlike the Astros who should be great in both when healthy). The Dodgers just don't have a healthy pitching staff and I have no idea how they managed to win 100 as they looked like the Betts and Freeman show instead of a complete team when I saw them. Orioles will be great, but I am little surprised they won 100 this year.

    I'm going to put most of the postseason success on the players for playing/being great, Luhnow for getting most of the players, Click for resisting the temptation to trade players despite trades being viewed as inherently good, and Maldy/Crane for getting JV. Managers....it is hard for them to create value in a small sample outside of creative ways pitching is used (I don't think Dusty is behind this much), but easy to f#$% it up. I just don't give much credit for not f$%^ing things up.

    I will say Dusty appears to have most of the vets happy. Hard for me to quantify how important that is considering a lot of managers do that (or at least, that should be one of the things good teams try to get in a manager). I have not liked Chas comments lately. He's been too humble. I think players can perform with a wide range of personalities, but players should be themselves (granted, maturing happens so there is some change). I want "I am the CF" Chas and not "Whatever is best for the team" Chas. I know I'm biased on this. I don't want a player to have to jump through hoops to feel like that is the way to play instead of being judged on being a good ball player over a long stretch of time. The postseason isn't the time to do it, but Diaz and Chas need to be treated like Pena next season even if they regress some.
     
    #71 Joe Joe, Oct 13, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2023
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  12. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

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    I mean... that was seven months ago...

    I've said this before: Baker should've played McCormick more and I'm at a loss as to why he didn't. Having said that... McCormick was 7th in PAs. Only Bregman, Tucker, Abreu, Pena and Alvarez had more*. So, yeah - Chas should've played more - but, also, he did play *a lot*, especially considering he missed a month with an injury. Again: I'm not arguing he played *enough* - I would've played him more. But he's likely north of 500 if he'd stayed healthy.

    (* technically, Dubon had more but that's because he played so much this year for Altuve, who was actually behind Chas. In a "normal" year, you move Altuve near the top and Dubon behind Chas.)

    Julks wasn't a long-term solution so his deeper metrics were sort of irrelevant. Was he hitting? Good, he plays - because, again, they didn't have a lot of other options. Dubon was having to play 2B, Brantley was hurt, then McCormick and Alvarez got hurt.

    But there's no evidence Dusty routinely played Julks over Chas. Before Chas got hurt (April 14):
    GS: Chas 11; Julks 8
    PA: Chas 48; Julks 35

    Chas was playing more. Once more: should it have been that close? No - but, again: Julks was not playing terribly early. He just wasn't.

    Between June 1-14, McCormick posted a .911 OPS. From June 15 on, McCormick totaled 328 PAs and 77 GS over the course of 94 games. That's a 162 game pace of 590 PAs and 132 GS. Hopefully for the last time: I am not arguing that's enough - only that I bet it's more than people realize because they're doing so much of this emotionally/in their head.

    Once McCormick got hot - again, he was *really* bad in May - Baker played him a lot. And when everyone was healthy, Julks played less.
     
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  13. BlindHog

    BlindHog Member

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    Although it is indisputably true that health and depth were debilitating issues this season the way Dusty responded to those issues was equally bad. His unwillingness to use the depth available to him and to repeatedly run out guys that he was comfortable with instead of looking for the best we had available made the season unnecessarily difficult. I have always believed that the team was winning in spite of Dusty rather than with his help and most people have come to that realization on their own. With regard to Diaz and Maldy I think Dusty got that right. Diaz is a hitter and should have been utilized more in that capacity. I care nothing about hitting by a catcher. Catchers have more important roles to play and I have said many times that Maldonado was the smartest catcher in the game. That is not something that is easily replaced.
     
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  14. houstonstime

    houstonstime Member

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    Honestly, I don’t care if Chas played 160 games this season.

    Not starting him in game 1. AS WELL AS then starting Julks in game 2 and not him. Were both unnecessary slaps in the face from an arrogant old fart that doesn’t like being wrong.

    Other than that, I don’t really care much about the numbers. Just play him now please.
     
  15. Yordan The Great

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    Dusty still needs to be "not signed" after this season. Even if he wins it all again.

    Time for McCormick to see more than 400 ABs (Jesus that's embarrassing I had to type that) and Diaz needs to be our everyday catcher.

    Dusty and Maldonado are tied at the hip. They are a package deal. If Dusty manages until he is 80, Maldonado would be our starting catcher until he's 45. No Bueno.

    I've been the biggest proponent of Abreu so I'll serve all the crow on that one. I want to see Tomstro eats the feathers and all.
     
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  16. raining threes

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    They got lucky when they won their division. Dusty's lineups cost them 3 or 4 games.

    Agreed about Framber

    France saved their butts this yr.
     
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  17. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard

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    What happened to everyone that hated the 2nd Verlander trade?
     
  18. Buck Turgidson

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    Amateurs, the lot
    Astros playoffs always on
    Way too soon for crow
     
  19. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard

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    We used Zach Greinke as a pinch hitter IN THE WORLD SERIES.
     
  20. raining threes

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    ^^^^
    This
     
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