Challenging and contesting an election is one thing. Trying to overturn it through illegal means is a crime. It's too bad @Salvy and @giddyup don't understand the difference.
Those aren't two separate choices. Exasperated at the fact that he lost and expressing that also means that he knew that he lost. He knew it. The fact that he was exasperated by it doesn't change that. I agree that he should have let it go a long time ago. He should have let it go once it was clear to him that he legitimately lost. But instead he attempted to discount the vote of millions of Americans and rig up fake electors to steal the election.
If you read the indictment it lays out clear evidence of Trump confessing behind closed doors that he knows he lost. In the court they'll show that and explain to the jury to motive to try and remove liability to publicly acting as though he doesn't know, or is getting bad counsel. I don't think a jury will side with Trump give the evidence laid out in the indictment. Also don't really appreciate your last comment which is obvious gaslighting. (Stop talking about Trump because you (the left) are the ones making him popular among the right.). This type of gaslighting is typically designed to minimize Trump's crimes, and excuse the Republican party, and the primary voters supporting him. Again... it's not our fault that Trump committed horrible crimes, and it's DEFINITELY not our fault that Republicans continue to support him. I won't be gaslit into believing it's my fault that the right is choosing to back a clear fascist wannabe dictator who actually does have a shot at taking power again. Small chance but still a chance we should take seriously. If you want us to stop talking about Trump... tell your cohorts in the MAGA base to ditch the orange guy and back start supporting someone who believes in the Constitution. You yourself sir have a larger role in this conundrum than I do. You are a self identified Republican. The Republican party cannot be changed by Democrats. It's not my problem... ITS YOURS.
Clearly you are not getting the point. You wrote that he didn't have issues with the reporting of the tabulation. He definitely had issues with the reporting. He b****ed about AZ being called early by Fox. Regardless of whether or not he was suspicious (which is his right) HE HAD ISSUES WITH THE REPORTING OF THE TABULATION.
I am sure political damage to Trump and the Republicans is a big part of this - but just admit that you have and will continue to excuse any behavior by Trump because politically you benefit from it.
Trump has indeed taken this too far. I'm just calling a spade a spade. The exaggeration of this "threat to democracy" is over the top.
My point is that he had underlying issues with the whole process. If the tabulation is wrong, the reporting is going to be wrong. That's what he was hanging his hat on .. and I understand why. I don't necessarily agree with him but I understand his frustration. He was irked that he felt Fox was not backing him up.
I love how you've already convicted Trump for his "crimes." .. and readily denote him a fascist dictator. All because of alleged "gaslighting?" I think these insults were being thrown at him long before any of this. I'm not particularly aware of the Republican Party supporting him. Near the end you indict the MAGA base and those are not the same thing. Seems like he's on his own with his fans, of course. "Republicans" and "Republican Party" are not the same thing.
In 2000, Gore lost a Florida recount appeal that went all the way to the Supreme Court. Actually there has been some kind of Democratic challenge raise on every recent Republican presidential victory of recent history. We are a Republic not a Democracy.
Overturning or not is simply a result of challenging. From Pence's book: "“Mr. President, I don’t question there were irregularities and fraud,” Pence wrote that he told Trump. “It’s just a question of who decides, and under the law that is Congress.”
Again, the key words are "through illegal means" You can try to change the results of an election legally, or illegally. When you break the laws, it's a crime. Go figure.
Which is perfectly reasonable and acceptable behavior. Devising a fake elector scheme, coercing people to "find votes", and readying the military to take over after trying to convince people to falsely say things were corrupt....is not....and is illegal...hence the charges.
That's a very convenient talking point for Republicans wanting to excuse overturning elections. Then you have the gall to gaslight and have faux outrage about a Republican being called an autocrat or a fascist. That's funny. And yes we are a Democracy. We have the structure of a Republic, but everything in government is structure to come up through ballot measures, and representatives all elected locally.... which fundamentally makes us a Democratic Constitutional Republic. AKA a Democracy. This was only challenged by John Adams who got his theory tossed aside when Thomas Jefferson took place. This talking point only came back when Joe McCarthy was in Congress in the 50's. Interesting to see you take your philosophies from Joe McCarthy and John Adams. Using what Al Gore as a whataboutism example of overturning Democracy is just downright hilariously trolling in bad faith. You just aren't a serious person if you want to seriously sit here with a straight face, and argue that nonsense. Obviously you have not read the indictment of Donald Trump because either you are too lazy, and just want to lie here or you just lack reading comprehension. So let me just cut straight to the point... The Indictment uncovers evidence of Trump literally trying to pressure the VP into taking power he doesn't have to refuse rightfully appointed electors.... AKA actually overturning an election. That's NOT the same thing as filing a lawsuit after an election to have the courts review the state process of properly executing a recount. Al Gore also oversaw the certification of George W Bush's electors with no problems. That's quite different then what Trump did, and the actions he took to try and implement this scheme.
"The four charges rely on three criminal statutes: a count of conspiring to defraud the government, another of conspiring to disenfranchise voters, and two counts related to corruptly obstructing a congressional proceeding. " Was the government "defrauded"? Were any voters "disenfranchised"? Did Trump "corruptly obstruct the congressional hearing"? Legal experts are citing how the indictment is only going after "low hanging fruit" and not charging co-conspirators for ease and speed of a hopeful conviction. Smells like politics to me!
For one, he worked to appoint fake electors - which is clearly illegal. There are more than 4 charges, and they are clearly laid out in the indictment if you read it. Calling up Georgia and pressuring an official do break the law is illegal by the way. Legal experts can be cherry picked, from what I have seen, he's committed some serious crimes here.
Sorry but you don't own the conversation. You hysterically throw around accusations of "gaslighting" and "faux outrage" way too liberally. Stooping to personal insult is a sure way to be dismissed. I simply pointed out that challenging an election outcome is not that rare. You challenge some perceived motive with contempt but not the fact. A democracy reeks of mob rule. That's why we have a Republic and why we have an electoral college as well. If Trump was pressuring Pence to do something that does not exist, where's the foul? As I said elsewhere, scholars see these charges as only angling for low hanging fruit, etc.
Trump blew his wad. I want to move past him but (GASLIGHT WARNING) the Democrats keep him in the news. Oh well.
You are kidding right? Legally questioning in court isn't a problem. Nobody was saying Trump couldn't bring cases to trial. He did and lost. Attempting to disallow legitimate electors and replaced them with bogus electors is an attempt to overthrow the democracy. Trump did the latter.
