Where does James Harden rate All Time in shooting guards ?

Career defensive win shares says very little about a player’s defense.

1. Defensive win shares is heavily dependent on team defense statistics
2. The more career minutes, the more win shares.

So Kobe benefits for having a super long career. That explains his ranking there more than anything else.

 

I know exactly what win shares means... And part of being high on the list is longevity... Thats why Harden should play about 5 more years before even discussing him.

Having said that, you proved my point... Chris Paul as #1 just shows how stupid all of this is.

 

Yes, I know. Bobby wanted me to give him metrics and I did. These are the dumbest stats to even bring up.

 

I looked at those metrics of win shares per 48 minutes....some funny stuff, starting with Christ Paul #1 all-time.

David Robinson #3.

Charles Barkley ahead of Tim Duncan.

Manu Ginobili ahead of Bill Russell and Kevin Garnett.

DeAndre Jordan ahead of Alonzo Mourning and Steve Nash.

Appreciate the laughs. I'll return to actually watching sports.

 

No, it doesn't, it just shows that you don't understand what the metric shows and what the potential weaknesses are. Chris Paul hasn't begun to decline yet thus his numbers are artificially high, that number will fall as he ages.

The point I've made and have sufficiently proven is that Harden has already had several seasons better than the best seasons Kobe ever managed.....so Harden playing longer is irrelevant. Him playing 7 seasons better than Kobe ever managed instead of the 3 or 4 currently won't change anything.

You could take the best Kobe ever was and he wouldn't measure up to Harden currently.....but that's not true for players who are actually better than Harden. Take the best Jordan ever was, that blows not only Kobe but also Harden completely out of the water. You wanna know why? Because he's that much better. Your excuse that the metric is discriminatory due to era is flatly wrong. If you look at the top one season win share totals you don't get to a season in the last 20 years till number 17 on the list and that was Lebron James' best season. If anything the metric might be more skewed towards the old timers.

Let's face it, your narrative is supported by absolutely nothing concrete and is debunked by every objective measure.

 

Honestly though, this whole back and forth is reminiscent of Morey trying to discuss basketball with Charles Barkley.

"Those stats don't mean nothin, I actually played the game"

 

Chris Paul, even on his decline, will still be top 5 all time. David Robinson #3.... Are we waiting for him to decline too?

Win shares is a stupid stat, and using that as your basis for any argument just shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

do you consider Gas

What do you think is the largest component of win shares?

 

David Robinson was a lot better than most people realize.

Anyway, I've acknowledged that every metric has flaws, but that doesn't make them worthless. Your problem is that absolutely nothing would support your narrative about Kobe. If you can't make a statistical argument to defend a player, odds are you are supporting a false narrative.

There's a difference between suggesting that one metric is flawed and pointing out why it is flawed and what you are doing which is saying that ALL metrics are flawed because they won't support your narrative. Take Olajuwon for example, win shares don't really love him, but you can use other metrics to support how dominant of a player he was. To support him as a defensive beast, you could point to the fact that he led the league in defensive rating for 5 consecutive seasons for example.

When you can't come up with anything aside from "some people told me that they agree with me".....well it doesn't say good things about your position.

 

Wins.

 

Robinson is a hall of famer, but he's nowhere close to top 10 centers of all time... Let alone top 3 regardless of position.

As far as metrics... How many all nba teams was Kobe on? Does that count? How about all nba defensive teams? Does that count? Let's see....

Kobe has 11 all nba first team selections in 19 seasons compared to Harden's 3 in 8 seasons.

Kobe has 9 all defensive first team selections compared to 0 for Harden.

These stats are far more important than stats like win shares.

So, when Harden can get to that level of excellence over such a long stretch of time, then we can start talking.

 

lamo Kobe wasn't an elite defender after 2003, those 9 All-Defense selections are as legitimate as Jeter's Gold Gloves

 

No, that's not a metric, and it's not based on anything but opinion.....you know, literally the only thing you've mentioned thus far to defend your opinion.

Those aren't stats....those are awards and acolades that are based on nothing but opinion.

It's incredibly clear that you have nothing concrete to support your opinion Chuck and that's just turrible.

 

Whats more important to you?

2 more statpadding Uncontested rebounds

Or 8 more wins/3 seeds higher

 

Altuve winning MVP was opinion. Doesn't mean he wasn't the best player.

Opinion matters bc it's recognition compared to peers. Kobe has that in spades.

Win shares are bullshit.

 

Wins. Always wins. Specially playoff wins.

 

Absolutely, just like Westbrick winning MVP last year in basketball was opinion. The difference is that you can use metrics to create a ridiculously solid case for Altuve as MVP where you couldn't really do for Westbrick....you know, that's why citing those kinds of awards are pointless when you can't back it up with anything solid.

Again, your opinion is entirely based on opinion....which doesn't mean you are wrong, it just means that absolutely nothing substantial supports your opinion while pretty much all evidence suggests that your opinion is wrong.

Every player who has ever spent a minute in the NBA could be of the opinion that Matt Maloney was the greatest PG in NBA history and by your standards, that would make Matt Maloney the best PG in NBA history.

 

You're right... Kobe Bryant isn't in the discussion.

Deshaun Watson would also be lucky to be a decent NFL quarterback in a few years IF he works really, really hard on his footwork and accuracy and arm strength.

 

LOL and that's just you conceding the L.

I would have hoped for more from you, but it is what it is. You took an indefensible position and made a lot of noise for a long time but sadly your defenseless position was exposed early and often. The best you had was a fallacious ad populum argument and when that failed you fell back on ad hominem. Again, disappointing but not terribly surprising.

 

It's not conceding the L...you're just king of getting the last word in no matter what.

Harden needs to win rings and play at this level for 5 more years for anything to be a discussion in regards to Kobe. Until then, whatever youre spewing is pure horseshit, per the usual.