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To win the 2020 election Democrats need to...

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by FranchiseBlade, Dec 15, 2019.

  1. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    Disagree. Clinton being herself was being a moderate. Clinton's career is the shining example of what a moderate Dems do.
     
  2. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    we're not talking about Clinton's career. We're talking about Dems' chances of winning in 2020. Can you say . . . George McGovern?
     
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  3. Jayzers_100

    Jayzers_100 Member

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    Nobody will get curb stomped by Trump in a debate. Trump has tarnished his reputation permanently and he can do nothing to rehab his image or convince anyone that he’s intelligent or insightful.

    the way the democrats lose is to nominate someone who can’t rock the vote, or someone so far left that swing voters would accept the status quo over radical change. I think Sanders is fine but Average American May be scared off by some of his policies.

    Nominating Cory Booker or Amy Kobluchar is how you comfortably win, but for some mysterious reason the riskiest candidates are leading. Mayor Pete probably makes most sense at the end of the day
     
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  4. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Well, that means Biden should win the next election, right?

    This doesn't even get to the heart of my point though that 'Moderates' is a mythical group that really doesn't exist, or rather, they are a small demographic that doesn't swing elections the way people think they do.

    I think any candidate is going to make a huge mistake trying to appeal to moderates before their own base.
     
  5. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    You said the reason Hillary lost was not because Hillary's a moderate, but because she's Hillary. My point was being a moderate is what makes Hillary herself.
     
  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    yeah, basically I disagree with the heart of your point . . . I think moderates basically make up the 80% in the middle. They used to be called the Silent Majority
     
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  7. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    and I disagree with that. Hillary's hubris and sense of entitlement about the Presidency has nothing to do with her putative centrism and everything to do with "what makes Hillary herself."
     
  8. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    I honestly think Joe would get curb stomped. He'd get bullied by Trump, he'd embarrass himself by stuttering off and losing track of his sentences, by saying whacky stuff about corn pop, the record player, punching and punching and punching at domestic violence, letting kids stoke his legs in pools, the list goes on and on.

    Joe simply makes a fool of himself on stage. Trump is a jackass himself, but he's a MUCH better debate performer at this stage of Joe's career. Joe 10 years ago probably would have made Trump look silly, but Biden 2019 will self implode and Trump would capitalize.

    IMO.
     
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  9. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Well, I did have a link with data that backs up my point.

    Basically, that moderates all lean a certain way or believe in certain things that would put them on the left or the right, so they are not really moderates but people love to believe that they are 'unbiased' or 'centrist' and that they are just sick of both sides while they are actually on one side.

    It's sort of like ESPN commentators that pretend they are neutral observers while the drool at the prospect of an all LA WCF..but they will tell you they are neutral observers and just commentators and aren't fans of any teams
     
  10. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    he's right you know copy.jpg
     
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  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    you may be right, but I think there's an awfully large number of people who voted for Obama twice who then held their noses and voted for Trump. They definitely didn't all "lean a certain way" ideologically but something motivated them to switch their votes. And I'm guessing they were somewhere in the middle, worldview-wise.

    on edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama-Trump_voters
     
  12. Jayzers_100

    Jayzers_100 Member

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    Tough to say. I think people largely vote based on personality rather than policy position. I consider myself to be very observant of political trends and current events, was a political science major in college, etc. if I filled out a questionnaire I would be in favor of mostly liberal positions. But I thought 2012 was a win-win election year because I loved the sensibility demonstrated by both Obama and Romney. I think a lot of people are willing to forgive shortcomings in policy goals in favor of someone they could have a beer with
     
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  13. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    ... said by not one Trump voter ever.
     
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  14. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    This is a good point about the Obama-Trump voters.

    The Wiki is supported by the polling data though, because these Obama-Trump voters big issues were 'Immigration' and 'Healthcare'...Now, Obama didn't really run on immigration but he did run on Healthcare. Meanwhile, his opponents basically ran on standing in the way of Obama bringing massive change to Healthcare. Romney and McCain were moderates and Obama ran as this force of change that was going to change the white house, that was his claim then and his big promises and dreams and hopes is what charged his two campaigns. What motivated them to vote was the immigration issue and the healthcare issue, Trump promised to tackle both. So he won those same voters Obama won.

    Now, this is not to say that Democrats should just say any old thing like illegal immigrants should also get free things or that we should get rid of private businesses or any old crazy thing...there is a line...but I think a Democrat should tell those voters why M4A would help them and why it is different than Obamacare instead of just ditching it completely in an appeal to these voters. Or explaining that immigration can be tackled more sensibly than a wall.

    Also, how many people vote in this country? It is always around 50-60%, which means there is always a group of potential voters that simply sit at home and do not vote. A politician has to get these people out to vote. So everyone always has more voters to actually pull from, if 80% of the country voted or closer to 100% then yes, moderates would be a big deal, changing voters over to your side would be the biggest deal, America's voting turnout used to be in the 70s and up and so maybe these moderates were a bigger deal now...

    But when about only half of the country votes that means that there is always a bigger pool of voters to choose from.
     
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  15. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I think there are definitely people that vote like this though. Not sure how consistent they are every election year or how much of the electorate they make up though.

    I think a lot of voters are 2-3 issue voters though. I know if the GOP turned around and decided they were going to change the criminal justice system and say legalize pot they'd instantly see a dramatic increase in black voters. Dramatically.

    I think that's why Trump won a lot of people over because people felt immigration was being ignored and Trump promised to tackle it...i do agree that many have fallen into his personality though.
     
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  16. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    I think a lot of Trump voters are happy with what he's done so far though. I think the issue is that some of them don't admit to being Trump voters.

    But the Right and its teaparty movement basically went through this whole thing the Democrats and its progressive movement is going through now. Basically a lot of people on the right grew tired of what they saw as corporate republicans that didn't fight for their beliefs.

    Difference between the GOP and DNC is that the GOP, well, enough of the GOP at least, embraced the Tea Party while the DNC keeps trying to smother its own populist movement.

    At least that's my view of things.
     
  17. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    I certainly hope no democratic leaders catch wind of this thread and start implementing some of the crazy ideas being discussed.
     
  18. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Your examples from the previous post seem to indicate single issues and not a broad spectrum of issues among these "independents" of which I am one.

    I'm not beholden to either party but there are issues from both which I support.

    How you get me to vote for your candidate is not with radical change but with a common sense approach to these issues and financial responsibility.

    You don't tell me you are coming for my guns , you explain to m how you plan to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals or crazy people.
    On illegal immigration you tell me how you are going to make life hell for those who hire illegals. No , we don't need to spend billions on a wall …. when we can have a wall of laws that are fair and give those who deserve it a spot in our society.

    On drug prices , you look at the rest of the world paying significantly lower prices drugs but Americans paying sometimes 10x the rest of the world - How do you plan to solve that ?

    Free college ? Free aint free and we all know someone has to pay the bill. How about some form of civil service , available to anyone , be that military service or something else in exchange for that free college?

    Healthcare …. don't tell me I cant have supplemental insurance above and beyond your universal care.

    See , Independents aren't just single issue voters nor do they want either extreme. Meet me in the middle.
     
  19. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I think you missed the point. The candidates you are more likely to consider non-socialist, you still won't vote for. Of course, Trump supporters like the idea of those candidates. They still won't for them. Democrats need to focus on winning people who will vote for the Democratic candidate and not on the candidate that they might consider if they weren't already going to vote for Trump.
     
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  20. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    Not really.

    What made Hillary such a poor candidate was not her position on issues but being mixed up in so many negative things and the perception that she was the establishment.

    Her actual positions on the issues weren't her downfall.

    Benghazi , Emailgate , Uranium One , the "cheating" at the debates , the idea that the Dems screwed Bernie over.
     
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