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This is respecting the Vets?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rocket River, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    Imagine him going on his "Puerto Rico is an island surrounded by water. Ocean Water. Big Water" style rambling about a country with that name.
     
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  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    As in unit? Was a 0311(infantry rifleman) and spent most of my time with 2nd battalion 6th Marine Regiment, Fox company.
     
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  3. RocketsLegend

    RocketsLegend Member

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  4. Mathloom

    Mathloom Contributing Member

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    That's not even market based. That's how much a mercenary gets, but that's not how much the company - seeking a profit - gets paid. That's market + interest. Interest in this case meaning, how much of that money can be siphoned back to the decision makers? Easier with people like Prince. They can openly have a conversation about how much of American citizens' money can be apportioned between them later.

    You're also not taking into account the higher quality and additional training mercenaries receive vs regular Americans who are risking their lives.

    A very important point you bring up about mercenaries. Soon, "regular" soldiers will be "liberated" from service I'm sure. Congress is itching to go all-out mercenary army. The likelihood of regular soldiers being paid and trained as well? Zero. Blackwater is the secret friend of most of congress. They absolutely would rather give all the business to Prince than pay soldiers more.

    I also wanted to note about altruistic soldiers - this is irrelevant. For all of human history, across all countries, people who sign up are largely poor. It's a money thing and there is no more altruism in it than there is in someone working for the IRS despite the fireworks and marketing. Minor, irrelevant. Drop the pay and they will disappear. Increase it and they will line up. The GI bill is a lifeline for at least half of Americans who live a relatively desolate life in the richest country on earth. Those people become easy voters to win also, since they are disconnected from issues of regular society, themselves being embroiled in their own unfortunate problems.

    Just horrendous overall. Not limited to US, but it is certainly more shameful in the US considering the amount of money stolen, lost, spent there. It is unique. I'm not vilifying. It is historically unique. All kids should be able to get a bicycle, but the kid who's dad is buying ferraris should be more pissed if he doesn't get it.
     
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  5. RocketsLegend

    RocketsLegend Member

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  6. RocketsLegend

    RocketsLegend Member

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  7. RocketsLegend

    RocketsLegend Member

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    Once again another anti trump story falls flat
     
  8. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Kelly is harsh on the Congresswoman that was there listening in on the call, and he kind of has a point unless shes a friend of the family.

    That being said... Kelly admits that Trump said what he said "In his own way", and he did say what the Congresswoman said he said.

    I'll be objective about this and say that I believe that Trump was probably trying to be sympathetic in his own way, and I know what he was trying to go for here with the "He knew what he was getting himself into". A Trump fan would say "what he was getting at was trying to say that the soldier was proud to serve bravely knowing that he was putting his life on the line for his country....etc. etc."

    The issue is this is the president of the United Sates, and what he means to say vs. what he actually says does matter. His words matter, and if he can't articulate sympathy correctly in this particular case, that's a problem. The grieving wife was hurt more that he called because he can't articulate sympathy the way a normal president would. He's best not making these calls, and letting Mike Pence do them honestly.

    So yeah the Congresswoman is guilty of being overzealous in making the indecent a political smear, but at the same time Kelly, the GOP, and the nation really get an inside view of the lack of competence of our president.
     
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  9. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    @Mathloom you are ranting again.

    Your "free market" argument is broken. Vets get more than what the free market would give them. Free market doesn't value you based on how important your role is. Teachers are likewise underpaid. Janitors are underpaid. All of these do jobs that are more important than many roles in our society that are paid WAY more. The difference is how replaceable they are.
     
  10. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I wouldn't say it is irrelevant. Pay is important. But there are lots of non-compensation characteristics of any job that makes them more or less desirable. Oftentimes people are motivated to enlist by exogenous factors like the steady paycheck, to build a resume, to get help with education. But, there are lots of people who enlist out of a desire to serve. As compensation goes down, fewer and fewer people feel like the sacrifice is worth it, and as it goes up, more people feel like it is justified. That doesn't mean that simple patriotism isn't part of the motivation. There are also intrinsic motivations for working at the IRS or any company, but it isn't often patriotism.
     
  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Would he call the mother that as the mother of the KIA service member expressed the SAME EXACT SENTIMENTS.
     
  12. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    What people keep forgetting here is that this whole situation started with Trumps insecurity/obsession with bringing down Obama.

    Had someone not made that one stupid comment to him in the presser about calling the fallen families, he wouldn't have put in a situation to do his whole "I know you are but what am I" crap where he tries to say "The other guy was worse than me... blame the other guy".

    There is no topic that Trump won't initially view it in the spectrum of him vs. Obama. Had that spectrum not been created by that one question, he would have never called the gold star families, and started this chain of events.
     
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  13. TheresTheDagger

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    Great comment. Probably the closest here anyone has come to describing Trump as I see him.

    About being his inability to be your definition of a "good communicator"...I think that endears him to his base. They see no lie in the man even while he commits gaffes that would have severely damaged previous Presidents. They feel he is being treated differently and unfairly. And while the left finds fault with his every breath, his base tends to give him a pass and the benefit of the doubt because they feel the opposite...that deep down he cares about America and feel they have a champion for most of their beliefs. Does that mean Trump should get a pass all the time? No, absolutely not. Does that mean he is as bad a person as he is being painted? No probably not.

    The 24/7 criticism machine of Trump might be right much of the time. But the over the top outrage and (some) false stories also have given him just enough political cover to insulate him from his mistakes. If the goal is to make Trump a better President, it is failing miserably. If it is to get him out of office, the strategy is inconclusive and possibly counterproductive.
     
  14. TheresTheDagger

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    Remember, General Kelly is a Gold Star father himself...




     
  15. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    I'm not sure why it stuns him. I'm sure that's not the first time that a congressperson has listened in on one of these calls.

    That said, I don't find what he said offensive at all. He maybe said it a weird way because he's awkward with his delivery, but in my mind that sounds like something a lot of people would say.

    "I'm very sorry for your loss. Your husband was a brave man, he knew what he was signing up for. I know it doesn't help ease that pain though, but it's important that you know your husband died a hero. He knew the risks and he was fighting until the end."

    I don't know, that seems like a reasonable thing to say or some iteration of it.
     
  16. TheresTheDagger

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    Its because she eavesdropped and politicized a private moment between the President and a Gold Star family. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard of such a thing before.
     
  17. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I do rather agree that it was unseemly for her to politicize this phone call that should have been very personal. And I could be wasting my breath right now yapping about this over preening campaign to smear Trump at every turn, deserved or not. But, instead Trump made the whole about him and massively flubbed his entire reaction so that he comes out looking bad. Kelly has a valid point here ('stun' is perhaps overselling it), but I don't really care anymore because of what an ass Trump made of himself since then.
     
  18. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Does that matter when the gold star mother agrees and reaffirmed the congresswoman's statements?

    Like isn't the family's feelings the most important here?

    Also, the part that is to me the most depressing here and i think should irk you is that General Kelly told Trump NOT AS A CRITICISM that Obama didn't personally call him and Trump extrapolated that as a criticism and that he never called any gold star family members through out his entire term. That statement by Kelly is what motivated Trump to call these families....


    To one up Obama. I mean it's evident as night an day when he boasts about how he calls gold star parents and how Obama didn't. He turned a somber non political event of calling to console the family of a killed in action service member into a one up contest against Obama

    That doesn't disturb you?
     
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  19. TheresTheDagger

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    You're asking me to comment on your opinion of what Trump's motivation was for contacting the families. There is no way for me to know that your assertion was his mindset, much less his only motivation for calling these families. I guess I'm not willing to assume the worst as you are so no, I'm not disturbed as you are.
     
  20. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Context clues. Usually one's speech can hint at motivations

    Here are the facts.

    1. General Kelly stated to Trump NOT AS A CRITICISM (He explicitly stated this) that Obama didn't personally contact him about his son's death.

    2. Trump from that statement decides to call the families.

    3. Trump in a presser explicitly mentions and lies that Obama never called Gold Star families.

    You do 2+2.
     

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