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The Chance of War with Iran

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by dumbartonbass, May 15, 2019.

  1. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    No one cares that matters. Ultimately Trump can do anything and it really won't affect him politically. He has a blank check to do what he likes.

    That's why he can lie as much as he wants or bomb whomever. It makes no difference actually either way.
     
  2. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    The House did pass a bill limiting the President's war powers and it has a good chance to pass in the Senate. That people like Mike Lee and Matt Gaetz are speaking out on this shows that there is wide ranging concern over Trump's use of the military.
     
  3. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    So what? If he ignores the war powers act what will Mike Lee do? Impeach him?
     
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  4. BigDog63

    BigDog63 Member

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    They've been wanting to put that genie back in the bottle for quite a while. It's not just a Trump thing...that is purely political. Obama launches hundreds of drones...that's great! Trump launches one...gotta stop this rampant use of the military!
     
  5. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Trump not only is ramping up the drones, he also signed an executive order to not release civilian death reports resulting from those attacks which at least Obama did.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/tru...reporting-civilian-drone-strike-deaths-2019-3
     
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  6. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Here's trump sharing details on the military strike to kill solemani... "he was saying bad things about us."

    Trump tells GOP donors that Soleimani was 'saying bad things' before strike
    https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...s-that-soleimani-was-saying-bad-things-before
     
  7. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Yes they can launch another impeachment and if Republicans like Lee are the ones launching it that will carry much more weight towards removal than one launched by Democrats. Further the Congress can cut off funding.
     
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    Actually if you read the Anwar Awlaki thread you will see there was a lot of criticism of Obama's use of drones. I agree though this is a problem that Presidents and Congresses of both parties have created. The diminishing of Congress and increase of Executive power has been going on long before Trump.
     
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  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    If it were anyone else, I'd think they were being facetious. The idea that Republicans like Lee would step up and impeach Trump is ludicrous. Nothing will happen. They are 100% behind him. Trump has allied himself with Putin, and if that isn't enough to scare Republicans like Mike Lee - nothing will.
     
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    You're certainly free to wallow in cynicism but that people like Lee and Gaetz who are normally very reliable Trump supporters are willing to not just criticize him but vote against him is a very telling sign. It does show there are limits to even Trump's support.
     
  11. dachuda86

    dachuda86 Member

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  12. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    And you are free to be blindly drunk on naive optimism.

    So they criticized him. Maybe they will vote for the symbolic war resolutions bill which even if it passes will most certainly be vetoed. I never said that the GOP senators agree with Trump on everything, just that they are too scared to ever impeach him. I doubt that Mike Lee doesn't still support Trump. Do you think he will vote against him in the impeachment trial?
     
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  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    People like Lee and Gaetz going against Trump shows that Trump's support isn't neverending. That two Trump defenders, especially Gaetz who was the one who did the stunt of trying to storm the SKIF during the impeachment hearings, are publicly voting against him is a sign that likely opposition to Trump among even GOP circles is there. I agree that probably doesn't mean that Trump is removed from office but it does give more cover for Senators to vote for things like witnesses. Further it is a shot across Trump's bow that he can't do anything.

    I'm not naively optimistic as I don't think this means the end of Trump. This is a long process and as I keep on saying a lot can change. It is an important indicator of the where the limits of Trump support are. You're free to ignore it and celebrate your pessimism but this is a fact that we're seeing people who have been die hard supporters standing up against Trump.
     
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  14. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Always should follow that up with "Americans in war zones as an occupying force".

    It's very different from saying "American civilians in American soil minding their own business".

    The latter is what Saudi Sunni extremists do. Iranian Shai extremists don't really carry out attacks on civilians on Western soil.

    But hey we are best friends with the latter.
     
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  15. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    We've seen this episode before - GOP's stand up to Trump over something and then cower back down over time. Even Collins and Romney have backed down and fallen in line once Trump put his hammer down. Everyone saw what he did to McCain. The only people who have truly taken a stand are the ones not running for office again or dying. Reality is opposing Trump is political suicide. Is there some red line for GOP senators? Sure, if Trump let Russia station troops in NYC, I am sure that would be the end of him. But except for ridiculous scenarios, he can get away with anything.

    I mean, Trump tried to rig the 2020 election and not a single House member voted against him. He withheld money appropriated by congress in violation of the law. He ordered an extrajudicial killing of a foreign leader and only two GOP senators stood up to complain.

    I don't know how you can say with a straight face I am being pessimistic in light of the history. Shot across the bow? Are you serious? The only way the GOP stands up to Trump - the only way - is if his base stops supporting him.
     
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  16. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    One more followup on this. I do believe that most of Trump's support won't abandon him. I am convinced that there is at least 30% of the electorate that will support him even if he literally does shoot someone on 5th Ave. I also recognize that getting to 67 Senators for removal is a virtually impossible level to reach. The whole country isn't that. Trump won a very close election that a handful of votes in three states tipped it. I don't see anything that indicates it won't be another close election. What matters with understanding the limits of where Trump's support is that marginal differences could lead to big effects. That a guy like Matt Gaetz is upset with Trump enough to vote against him doesn't mean that he will become Justin Amash but it shows that even among his base there is dissatisfaction. It only takes a few of those to turn things around.
     
  17. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    And there were dems who stood up and against Obama. More Dems voted against Impeachment than Republicans voted for it after all. Singular issues do not reflect overall support, and that's why you are seeing from this.

    Given Trump has tried to manipulate the vote with Ukraine, it's plausible he has succeeded in other areas. He also has numerous laws at the state and local level working for him such as purging of voter roles. In a close election, he and the GOP our using their full leverage to gain any advantage they can.

    You have a lot of faith in our system. That's admirable. But I also think it's dangerous on some levels. Right now, I think Trump is the favorite to win re-election.
     
  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member

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    And what is your solution then? Not do anything? If you really feel that way then you might as well just give him a crown. You talk about someone who has faith in the system as dangerous yet offer no alternative in the face of what you frequently and loudly call out as a threat to democracy and Constitutional norms. If anything your cynicism is just as enabling as the Trump supporters that you argue with.

    Also everyone seems to forget that in 2018 we had an election that resulted in a resounding defeat for the GOP in the House and the flipping of several state houses. For that matter the GOP lost several special elections. I know in Minnesota a state that Trump lost by just 1.5% every statewide office is held by Democrats now and two Republican held districts were flipped.

    Yes Trump has a strong base but just being cynical about him online isn't going to change things.
     
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  19. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Instead of focusing on impeachment which isn't moving the dial, Dems need to focus on people's lives. Take the focus off of Trump and put the focus on what people are struggling with. Healthcare, education, housing.

    Why is it that only the left wing of the party is addressing this? Why is it that you see Warren and Sanders coming up with solutions here and Congress is doing little on this front? Why isn't the House doing an investigation into how to fix the crises that have been building in this country? Just because the Republicans before them did nothing, doesn't mean the Dems should too.

    This country is heading down. People can't afford a home, they can't afford to get educated, and they can't afford to even stay healthy. Those are basic needs people need to thrive - and right now that's more important to address.

    Trump is a threat to democracy. And they way to fight that threat isn't to impeach him, it's to win the battle of ideas. Dems have to win the people. Because they are losing on every other front with Trump.
     
  20. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    cheer up son.gif
     
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