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Perry's DOE orders massive coal subsidy

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by JuanValdez, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    you're never going to convince me that forcible capital investment of taxpayer dollars by politicians/bureaucrats is a good thing (see sports stadiums)

    if you need capital investment to get started, solicit it voluntarily
     
  2. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    Good for you. Another thing, guess how did China became an economical power? Do you live in the real world?
     
  3. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Particularly for electricity, I'd say the market is a construct. The reason has a lot to do with the realtime nature of electricity. The market probably couldn't exist without government organizing it. So, yeah there are 'distortions' except that it's a bit unclear what distortion even means in a market construct like this. IMO, the ISO wholesale markets like PJM or ERCOT -- when paired with effective retail markets -- do a fairly good job of leveraging market forces to drive efficient outcomes. But because there is government involved, there's someone to go cry to when your investment doesn't pan out. And, unfortunately, sometimes the politicians are beholden.
     
  4. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    Are you advocating destroying the free market?
     
  5. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    Of course not, I just gave some examples of how industries started in other countries, if you go back far enough, you will see exact the same thing in US history, when England was the world's leading power. Provide government support for new industries is common practice. Did people expect Japanese and Korean car makers to compete against American car makers in the beginning without help? Look at how it turned out for these countries.
     
  6. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    Countries do it but it never lasts long. You could get away with it before we entered into a global market but now if you try it you will be met with force. Why do you think Canada just got ****ed with a 200% tariff for helping out an airplane manufacturer.

    This isn't the 1920's anymore.
     
  7. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    I was just giving example of how new industries needs help compete against established industries, renewable energy is certain new when compared to fossil fuel industry. If renewable is the future, and I believe it is, by not helping it we as a country is just giving the power to other countries, If there are a couple key break through in technologies are made, such as energy storage capacity and efficiency, renewable could destroy fossil industry like how the vacuum tube industry was replaced by circuit boards.
     
  8. REEKO_HTOWN

    REEKO_HTOWN I'm Rich Biiiiaaatch!

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    That kind of stuff is subsidized by the American taxpayers at Universities.
     
  9. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

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    That's one way America supports scientific research, even if trump is slashing spending for basic science research by 10% across the board, an act of stupidity. It's a very important role that our universities have had for decades, but hardly the only one that is key to keeping the US a leader in science and technology, in my opinion. Our government is subsidizing private companies working in critical fields. An obvious example would be our space program. We, the taxpayers, are helping companies like SpaceX pay for the important progress they are making in bringing down the cost of launching things into orbit. We don't pay for all their research, but I doubt that they would have made the progress they've made to date without help from federal dollars via NASA.
     
    #49 Deckard, Jan 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
    FranchiseBlade likes this.
  10. dmoneybangbang

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    You would think with globalization and China being our primary economic competitor that the free market crowd would limp away.
     
  11. dmoneybangbang

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    And coincidentally the US has been the leader in science, coincidence?
     
  12. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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    We do not need science in this country, the GOP mantra in recent years.
     
  13. dmoneybangbang

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    Then America would never be as powerful. You’ve been misled on the limits of the free market.
     
  14. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Trump has nominated Bernard McNamee to FERC. As you probably don't remember, there was a seat vacated by Chairman Robert Powelson who left during the summer. After the DOE recommended this giant subsidy to coal companies, FERC shot it down. I believe (though I don't know) that Powelson was forced out by the Trump Admin after that for his disloyalty. This new guy, McNamee, headed the DOE Office of Policy, and wrote the recommendation to subsidize coal. He has dismissed the industry's concerns saying that it isn't really a free market anyway (which is total, and dangerous, bullshit imo). He has also defended the proposition to use DOE's emergency authority to order the subsidies (which is also total, and dangerous, bullshit). In short, he'd just be 1 of 5 commissioners, but I think this is a very bad though entirely predictable development. Powelson wasn't going to do something dumb just because his boss told him to. McNamee has demonstrated that he will. Get ready to pay for more electricity so we can make it dirtier! What a world we live in.

    https://www.utilitydive.com/news/coal-lobby-pleased-as-trump-nominates-ally-mcnamee-to-ferc/538812/
     
    Buck Turgidson and Kim like this.
  15. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    Interstate highway system?
    Department of Defense?

    You actually could get me on board with this. :D "If you would like to make an extra donation beyond your tax bill, please check the box for 'tank' or 'jet fighter' and list the amount of your contribution."
     
    dmoneybangbang likes this.
  16. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    New genius coal plan : use west coast military bases to serve as free coal exporting zones to subsidize transport of coal nobody wants to buy westward, towards countries are currently in an endless pointless trade war with, because.....we can?

    https://apnews.com/573a19c3d43643e5b2d961b46cd99c67
     
    B-Bob and FranchiseBlade like this.
  17. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Or the internet.
     

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