1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[OFFICIAL] Potential Dem brokered covention thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by ThatBoyNick, Feb 24, 2020.

?

Should the candidate with the most delegates going into the convention be the nominee?

Poll closed Jul 24, 2020.
  1. Yes

    44.0%
  2. No

    16.0%
  3. It depends on how wide the margins are

    40.0%
  1. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2003
    Messages:
    47,267
    Likes Received:
    16,710
    Once again, not my argument.

    None of this makes Superdelegates, or the role that they played then or play now, a good idea. Nor do I see any evidence of Bernie being inconsistent or hypocritical in his desire to remove them from the process.

    If anyone wants to make a positive case for the SDs, or wants to point out Bernie flip-flopping on them, I'm all ears.
     
  2. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    "the electoral map was changed between 2012 and 2016 by voters who voted for Obama twice and then chose Trump over Clinton. Those people weren't vindictive because of Obama's comments about guns and bible."

    How they where vindictive over those comments when he made those comments before they voted twice for him.

    Not understanding that logic.
     
  3. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,653
    Likes Received:
    39,216
    But the super delegates didn't really have any power in 2016. If you eliminated all of the super delegates and switched to a "whoever won the most delegates won" system he would have been absolutely trounced. She was well over 50% and he still didn't like the system. The need for super delegates was the only reason there was doubt she could win outright. Bernie did try to switch super delegate votes to him prior to the convention saying he was the better candidate DESPITE Clinton winning close to 55% of pledged delegates. He wanted to be the nominee still which would have clearly overturned the will of the voters.
     
    jcf and Deckard like this.
  4. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2003
    Messages:
    47,267
    Likes Received:
    16,710
    I remember very clearly a LOT of media coverage in the early and mid 2016 cycle about how huge Clinton's lead was on Sanders because everyone was giving Clinton the Superdelegates.

    Granted these folks can switch their votes however they want (although it was often neglected to report it that way), but it seemed like they were being weaponized against Sanders to blunt any momentum and make his effort seem hopeless.

    IIRC the SDs amounted to about 15% of the total delegates. If you start a race off 15% in the hole, that kinda sucks.

    I get what you're saying, but I think it's important to consider when someone is being guided to an end by rules they have no control over, versus when someone is acting of their own accord. Expecting Bernie to handicap himself in a race on principle by not pursuing SDs is kind of unrealistic IMO.
     
    #104 DonnyMost, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  5. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,653
    Likes Received:
    39,216
    But before THIS election he didn't fight the second ballot rules. He's only fighting them now because he looks likely to be the leader on the first ballot.
     
    joshuaao and jiggyfly like this.
  6. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2003
    Messages:
    47,267
    Likes Received:
    16,710
    It was Sanders' desire to remove Super Delegates from the nomination process entirely.

    Moving them to the second ballot was the compromise.

    Ironically for the DNC, moving the SDs to the second ballot (instead of removing them entirely), may be what ends up catapulting Bernie into a plurality or even majority by the convention.

    Like I said in another thread; right now the problem is the moderates have no incentive to drop out because of the Superdelegates' power, this is causing Bernie to float to the top. Without the SDs in play, we would see a lot more moderates dropping out a lot earlier than this.

    Strange how this stuff all ends up working for/against people's intentions.
     
  7. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,383
    Likes Received:
    15,808
    Except it is. You said:

    The regular delegate and popular vote totals were *not* close. And superdelegates had no sway since Hillary won without them.

    Hillary won the popular vote by 12%. She won the pledged delegates by 10%.

    Obama faced the same superdelegate deficit in 2008. And he only won the popular vote by 0.1% and the pledged delegate race by less than 1% (1794 to 1731). And won the election - showing it was not, in fact, almost mathematically impossible to win because superdelegates aren't going to overturn the pledged delegate count even in the narrowest margins. Bernie's issue wasn't superdelegates or impossible math - he lost simply because 55% of the people voted for the other candidate.

    You also made this argument:

    Which is completely false. Take the superdelegates out this year and you'd still have to deal with the same brokered convention issues. And the same candidates would be trying to assemble a coalition. You seem to significantly overvalue the role superdelegates play. None of these people are basing their candidacies on superdelegates - they are basing it on building a coalition of *pledged* delegates as people horsetrade and drop out at the convention.
     
    joshuaao and Deckard like this.
  8. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2003
    Messages:
    47,267
    Likes Received:
    16,710
    This is fine in hindsight. It's not so fine when you consider reporting out of Iowa that looks like this:

    Delegate Totals
    Clinton - 700+
    Sanders - 21

    To act as if this does not affect a race is just silly. I'm not saying this cost Bernie the whole election, but it's stupid and we shouldn't have it going down like that.

    "But Obama overcame it" is not a very compelling argument that empowering Super Delegates is a good idea.

    "The Super Delegates haven't/won't overturn the will the people" is also not a very compelling argument, either.

    No reason to expose oneself to a risk simply because the risk has yet to manifest itself.

    Really? You think things would be the same (or worse) if there was no magical Super Delegate 2nd ballot? You think Pete or Amy would still be puttering along at their single digit national numbers, or Liz with her mountains of debt, if they knew there was no closed-door kingmaker process awaiting them if only they could make it to the convention?
     
  9. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    Ouch!

    That's gonna leave a mark.
     
  10. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    Somebody needs to throw the towel in for Donny.

    I don't think I can watch this.:eek:
     
  11. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    8,889
    Likes Received:
    11,317
    Sure , mass transit helps in some area's but in others its not viable , particularly in rural area's.

    And then ask yourself , how does that change the fabric of America .... remember your first car ?

    There's something about the freedom to get up and go when you you have the whim .... and while we have mass transit currently , is it really the governments responsibility to provide ?
     
  12. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    Yeah but most of the concentration is big cities with huge amounts of traffic, which is why I said it.

    Yeah I do think it's governments responsibility t for air quality and protecting the planet for their citizens.
     
  13. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    34,059
    Likes Received:
    13,408
    You could do a clash-for-clunkers type program where you offer people subsidies if they trade-in their qualifying internal combustion engine car for an EV.
     
    joshuaao and jiggyfly like this.
  14. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    56,793
    Likes Received:
    39,076
    I want to thank both of you for making this argument. It's an argument that I've made more than once in the past, going back to 4 years ago, and you are hitting the same brick wall. Let's hope that it doesn't end up the way 2016 did, with trump being elected because a candidate who wasn't a Democrat didn't like the rules, unless he thought they might favor him. His ardent supporters will make any argument, ad nauseam, in support of the man. I can't say as I blame them. They are supporting their candidate and I respect that.

    Where I fault them is when it carries over from the end of the primaries, when the loser doesn't want to admit he lost, to the run-up to the election, where the loser, Bernie, waited a month to endorse Hillary, and with her standing beside him, endorsed her in a very lackluster fashion, using one or two sentences in a 2200 word speech. I think he was more interested in basking in the cheers of his supporters, and embarrassing Ms Clinton, than he was in defeating trump. I also think it cost her the election, regardless of the foreign interference that was happening by the Russians, interference proven by over a dozen US intelligence organizations.
     
    jcf, joshuaao, jiggyfly and 1 other person like this.
  15. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    14,945
    Likes Received:
    6,150
    I understand political parties are private entities and are not govern by the Constitution.

    That said, I have a problem when political parties have the power to decide to toss out a viable candidate for their nomination. Bernies situation reminds us how much power the wealthy have over this country. We can swallow our pride when it comes to the 'land of the free and home to the brave' when the wealthy dictate the political parties to appoint competent leaders. America has a problem when these same clowns in said political parties start allowing incompetent candidates float to the top of potential nominations. While we have not gotten worse since 2016, we certainly haven't gotten any better.
     
    fchowd0311 likes this.
  16. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    14,945
    Likes Received:
    6,150
    This is a bit off topic. EV's are highly over-rated ... except Tesla. There is more to the Tesla experience than it being an EV. I would NEVER buy an EV that is nothing more than an ICE vehicle on top of an EV chassis.
     
  17. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Messages:
    13,020
    Likes Received:
    7,784
    Political Parties can eat a bag a dicks.
     
  18. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,853
    Very profound.

    Can I hear more.
     
    Deckard likes this.
  19. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,653
    Likes Received:
    39,216
    Where has the Democratic Party thrown out a viable candidate? Like what are you even talking about?
     
  20. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2005
    Messages:
    42,653
    Likes Received:
    39,216
    Yes unless you think there would be no 2nd ballot at all.

    Even without super delegates, parties historically have said that if no person gets the majority then on the 2nd ballot the PLEDGED delegates are free to vote how they choose on the second ballot, effectively becoming super delegates in a runoff.

    The only system that would benefit Bernie THIS year is a simple plurality vote. Whoever gets the most votes win regardless of the percentage. And that's fine if you want that system, but that's probably equally as much "ignoring the will of the people" if you elect someone who 60% of the voters rejected.
     
    Corrosion, jiggyfly and Deckard like this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now