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[OFFICIAL] Potential Dem brokered covention thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by ThatBoyNick, Feb 24, 2020.

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Should the candidate with the most delegates going into the convention be the nominee?

Poll closed Jul 24, 2020.
  1. Yes

    44.0%
  2. No

    16.0%
  3. It depends on how wide the margins are

    40.0%
  1. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Has Bernie proposed taking taxpayer dollars and subsidizing the corporate farmers? That's a play right out of Mao's playbook, and Trump did that. It is literally the government using our taxpayer dollars to stabilize the economy. Trump also instructed the government to seize property from private citizens using eminent domain in an effort to build the wall. He instructed businesses to pull out of China which is an example of the government interfering in the free market and exerting government control. You can pretend he didn't. But that's what happened. It's up to you if you want to actually face the truth or not.

    So are you against socialist policies or just someone using the label 'Democratic Socialist'?
     
    #82 FranchiseBlade, Feb 26, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
    SamFisher likes this.
  3. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Don't forget also, Taylor Swift absolutely cannot stand Donald Trump and is a hardcore liberal.

    (This personally bothers Donald J. Trump and his supporters)
     
  4. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    Yea, I couldn't sleep a wink last night I am so upset about who Taylor Swift supports. o_O:rolleyes:
     
    King1 likes this.
  5. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    I have n problems with you pretending Trump is more of a socialist than Bernie. Since you are a socialist, I assume you are now on the Trump bandwagon? I am supporting the uber capitalist Bernie in the primaries.:eek:
     
  6. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I am a socialist. However, I prefer socialism that tries to balance the scales in favor of the workers rather than the wealthy.

    So you will continue to look at the label rather than actual policies. That's your choice.
     
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  7. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    The actual policies lead to money being concentrated in even fewer hands. I agree it does promote equality in that it makes everyone but a few fortunate souls equally destitute.
     
    Corrosion likes this.
  8. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Trump's actual policies have the government taking our tax dollars and giving it out in order to have government control businesses. He's done this to the corporate farms and ranches that were hurt by his further use of government control over businesses to engage in a trade war with China. He's also granted economic boons with our tax dollars to large oil companies and even breaks for those that purchase corporate jets. He has asked that the government seize land from private citizens in order to build his wall.

    I'm glad that you agree that those policies harm everyone but a few fortunate souls.

    Have you been to other nations that use more socialism than the United States? You don't really see the types of destitution that you are mentioning. In fact, their problems with the homeless are either non-existent or a fraction of what we face here in the United States.
     
  9. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    Those years of conditioning were from the Democratic Party turning off voters for calling them the "nativist/idiot/Russian whatever vote," and then blaming them when they lost.
     
  10. foh

    foh Member

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    GOP effectively took the "lowest hanging fruit" by co-opting a base of electorate comprised of vindictive people that took offense to something Obama and HRC said AND to Dems' more humanistic view towards immigrants. This electorate assumed that Dems meant them when Obama & HRC used derogatory/elitist terms towards religious people with pronounced preference for guns. Could it be that all 3 parties involved are equally deserving of blame? But sure, Obama and Clinton are arrogant snobs and have undermined Democratic party because of that.

    With that in view, maybe it's time to redefine DNC and kick the establishment snobs to the curb. Let's see if Trump can retain his base in the face of Bernie's emotional populist message against billionaires (someone that Trump claims to be and certainly peddles to). He probably could if he equates Bernie to Hugo Chavez. This is why I think Bernie would be smart to sign on a moderate as a VP. I vote for Klobuchar - she could be the light in the end of the tunnel.

    I'd prefer Biden or Bloomberg but if Dems lose any moral ground, then there is no way to depress Trump's base. Unless Trumps f*cks up coronovirus response. Then Dems still should have a chance even if convention is brokered.

    Dark times.
     
  11. Corrosion

    Corrosion Member

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    I just have one thing to point out in regard to the climate change / move away from fossil fuels idea.


    The people who will get hit the hardest by this are .... the middle on down.

    Think about how much a new vehicle costs.

    Now think about how long we keep vehicles - particularly the poor and bottom of the middle class.
    People who don't go in and buy new vehicles but used ones because its more cost effective and reality is they generally can't afford new ones. They start with an older vehicle and keep it longer ....
    There wont be many used electric (or whatever else green) vehicles available for those masses either - they are stuck with their gas powered cars for years.

    With the move away from fossil fuels , the price of gas will increase significantly on a shrinking market which means those people stuck driving gas powered vehicles are paying a premium for transportation and this could last a decade or more.

    Just something to consider ....
     
    jiggyfly likes this.
  12. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    Obama had enough support to deliver a solid coalition for enough electoral votes for two terms. There's no getting around that the electoral map was changed between 2012 and 2016 by voters who voted for Obama twice and then chose Trump over Clinton. Those people weren't vindictive because of Obama's comments about guns and bible. They voted for him in 2008 and 2012 and those states carried him. But by 2016, the only change they saw was economic ruin, opioid addiction, record unemployment, and an overall significantly lowered life expectancy and quality of life. They saw themselves as left behind by a party they had supported for generations that was more interested in globalization and identity politics than trade unions and economic inequality and found themselves no longer welcomed under the Big Tent.

    Trump made his appearances and filled the gap with histrionics about the Mexicans and Chinese stealing their jobs at home, and abroad via trade agreements and outsourcing, he acknowledged that DC was out of touch and he would "drain the swamp." The great Donald Trump was going to fix it ad get them back to work as if nothing had ever changed. He didn't invent that. That's exactly what the old Democratic Party used to do generations ago when they courted their unions and votes and that, according to Steve Bannon, was the whole point, to claim this abandoned constituency for the GOP and win elections.

    No one should be shocked he got them to vote for him.

    It wasn't because they were feral Nazis brainwashed by Russian mind control rays. It's because the message was clear that the Democratic Party wasn't going to send major candidates into their union halls and pretend to care about their icky blue collar problems any longer. Unions have always been hostile to free trade agreements and immigration (and that includes the United Farm Workers under Caesar Chavez). It undermines the ability to collectively bargain for better pay and benefits if there's a steady supply of labor willing to work for less, either arriving across the border or working in factories in their home countries.

    Clinton made few appearances there, and added insult to injury by calling them deplorable bigots for embracing in Trump, however disingenuous, the pro-labor movement politics the Democratic Party used to represent over the globalist / culture war-centric post-triangulation message Clinton had for sale. The future first female president and Most Qualified Candidate Ever that was projected a 99% chance of victory didn't think she needed them and neither did anyone else in their bubble that vastly overrated the size of the Woke Twitter demographic, that like Elizabeth Warren still apparently believes, can win an election/

    The Democratic Party isn't going to win them back by continuing to insult them and not addressing their needs. Had the Democratic Party been spending the last three years making efforts to understand their own failings and explaining to Trump supporters that they had been fooled into supporting the traditional agenda of the same old GOP that never gave a **** about them, that the swamp wasn't being drained, that their jobs weren't coming back, coal burning wasn't preparing for a Renaissance, that massive tax cuts and military spending increases weren't helping their already bad circumstances, and so on, like an opposition party is supposed to instead of doubling down on denial and red-baiting, Donald Trump would have neither the approval rates or the political capital he has now.

    There are a lot of flaws in Sanders' movement, but if it can succeed in building a Big Tent of its own, I suspect it will look not as the millionaire "journalists" on television try to scare us into believing, like George McGovern's or Fidel Castro's, but rather more like FDR's. That might be frightening to them and the small plutocratic minority they work for, but it shouldn't scare anyone else.
     
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  13. foh

    foh Member

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    I just checked the unemployment was not at record highs in 2016 - was around 5%. Life expectancy was at all time high.

    Um how exactly do you expect democrats to explain anything to Trump cult at the time when all news that doesn't support Trump's worldview is fake? Hillary visiting union's town-halls across country? We have established Hillary to be an elitist snob. I was just asking you if you'd be willing to assign part of the blame on other parties besides DNC.

    I'm fine with Bernie taking over Democratic party as I already mentioned. Anything to "drain the swamp"
     
  14. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    I think you really are ignoring the media bubble divide where half of America recieves an entirely different set of narratives than the other half through the news media they consume.

    Some of your points are valid but before I continue on do you have data or at least do you have experience with a conservative bubble that you were around and lived with? When half your peers and friends are very conservative and right wing, you get to experience their political banter. You get to experience what they share on social media. And it's pretty conclusive for me that reductive memes with misleading information and click bait headlines with zero sourcing is why they believe the things they believe.

    Also, turnout of different voting blocs had far more to with Trump being elected than people changing their vote from Obama to Trump.

    I believe Bernie Sanders is great at explaining what the real problems in America are and his principled nature is why I prefer him to any other candidate. But unfortunately, at least with the conservatives I know, that principled message is overcome by the boggieman "socialism" to these people.

    There really does exist a major voting Bloc (uneducated conservative white blue collared workers) mainly due to the media they consume who fight against their own self economic interests.
     
    #94 fchowd0311, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  15. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
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    That doesn't mean they're wrong. Putting the nomination into the hands of 700~ people should strike everyone as a bad call.

    Can you provide evidence of this?

    As I remember it, Bernie's main beef in 2016 was the fact that the Superdelegates had pledged to Hillary so early that the race was essentially over before it had even began. Even though the (regular) delegate and popular vote totals were fairly close, the reporting of the race kept showing a Hillary landslide. Essentially the Superdelegates had so much sway that cycle that, by throwing their votes behind Clinton so early, they had made it almost mathematically impossible for Bernie to win.

    I never once heard Bernie say anything remotely close to wanting the system to be less democratic.
     
    #95 DonnyMost, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  16. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Interesting and something I had not considered.

    Seems mass transit would be easier and and affect more people especially the middle on down.
     
  17. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    The revisionist history that has occurred SINCE 2016 is only a little more maddening than the revisionism that was occurring AT THE TIME.

    The rules in 2016 had a certain number of delegates you had to reach to win the nomination that was high BECAUSE of the super delegates. Without the existing super delegates at the time, to hit the delegate number required you would have needed nearly 60% of all delegates you could win in the primary.

    In terms of pledged delegates at the time, (remember these are delegates that you could actually win) there were 4051 total. Of those, Clinton won 2220 or FIFTY FIVE PERCENT and Bernie won 1831. He had ZERO argument that the process was rigged.

    The only "unfair" part of the process was that the DNC was so badly in debt and lacking staffing that they basically let Clinton's people team up and access all of their data early on in order to get her financial support to rebuild the party. But that worked to Bernie's advantage. Because all the other moderate candidates that were serious didn't even bother to run that go round, Bernie got to have basic 1 v 1 contest with Clinton. He had plenty of money and he got beat straight up.

    Now, in 2016 what Bernie was mad about is that Clinton didn't hit the magic number without the superdelegates. But in reality, that number only existed BECAUSE of the super delegates. If there was no super delegate system, Clinton would have trounced Bernie in pledged delegates, winning well over 50% of them and we would have seen that race as a drubbing.
     
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  18. Major

    Major Member

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    This is nonsense. The same thing happened in 2008 with most of the Superdelegates being Hillary people. And you know what happened? Once Obama started actually winning the voters, the superdelegates flipped to Obama. Superdelegates are a Bernie boogieman, but they have never and won't overturn the clear will of the people. Their job is to tip the scales when the will of the people is not clear (as it may be this year). Bernie lost because he lost the popular vote and the regular elected delegate vote. And it wasn't particularly close. He blamed superdelegates because his campaign likes to whine about unfairness all the time, whether it's real or not.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #98 Major, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  19. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    This is the logic of Bernie or bust die-hards. It doesn't matter how inconsistent the argument is, because if it doesn't point to Bernie, it's a bust!
     
  20. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
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    You and I appear to be having two totally different discussions.

    I'm not arguing Bernie didn't lose or was cheated. There was a lot of icky things that everyone saw transpire, but nothing to the point of calling into question the legitimacy of the outcome.

    My point is simple (about the influence and power of the Super Delegates and how Bernie has been consistent in his desire to get rid of them and any undemocratic means in the nominating process) and isn't really addressed in anything you've posted.

    You've done a good job of illustrating how Bernie wasn't cheated, but that's not what I'm arguing.
     

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