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[Official] Joe 2020

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by justtxyank, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    So now the argument is going from "Biden isn't doing anything" to "well he's just doing what other Democrats are doing"? What did Sanders or Warren do to reach out to the black vote?
    This is a somewhat separate debate about whether expanding the ACA is the right way to go but the main point here is that Biden is actually doing something. This idea that he's just sitting in his basement twiddling his thumbs isn't true.
     
  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    I assumed the implication that this was a relative claim compared to the other field of primary candidates was obvious. Obviously I don't think Biden is doing "nothing". He's doing "nothing" worth chosing him over any other DNC candidate given his tendency to say stupid crap which is an important distinction to make.

    We need to go past pretending that the only way to seem to care about the black community is explicit pandering. Warren and Bernie discuss the solutions that attempt to solve the systemic underlying problems.

    I would say economics is the main reason for the modern day suffering of black urban poor families. 400 years of systemic racism from slavery to Jim Crow has force funneled black people into poor urban communties. Racism got black families into these poor conditions, but it's economics today that is keeping them there. It's a lack of healthcare, living pay check to pay check with excessive long hours where there isn't much time to raise children, a lack of early childhood education etc that forces children and adolescent teens in poor urban communties to have increased burdens where they have to side hustle rather than concentrate on academics and school so they can pay for their mother's diabetes medication or take care of their younger siblings because their mother isn't at home because she has to work. And when they have time for school, they have to go to a bad one that is poorly funded because the vast majority of k-12 school funding is through local property taxes which means that poorer neighborhoods with lower property taxes have worse schools which entirely defeats the purpose of free public education.

    Warren and Bernie compared to Biden disproportionately discuss the systemic underlying issues such as publicly k-12 education being overwhelmingly funded by local property taxes.

    With Biden, it's more platitudes about how he's friends with some prominent black legislators, some of whom grift for pharmaceutical and health insurance industries which is their driving force for wanting Biden over someone like Warren or Bernie who is going to reduce their chances of pharmaceutical and insurance lobbyists doating them with future board positions and campaign moeny.
     
    #2022 fchowd0311, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  3. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

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    lol...trump suckups know a lot about dodging lies from their political heroes!

    kind of like when trump invokes jesus or the bible in front of actual christians! two corinthians anyone?

    youre not wrong when you say this, but for a trump suck-up to make this statement just reeks of hypocrisy.

    as for biden, what he said was totally cringeworthy. its yet another example of how old, out of touch and gaffe-prone he is. he, like trump, is a relic from another time and its really depressing to see that this is the best our country can offer. two geriatric fools. the debates are going to be an embarrassment. trump will roll out all this juvenile name calling and biden will challenge him to a push-up contest or talk about how he wants to take him behind the school yard and fight him.

    all that being said, im at the point where if you are running against a trumpublican you have my vote. thats literally all it takes. biden could stand out of 5th avenue and shoot people and id still vote for him over orange jabba and his sycophants.

    EDIT: also worth pointing out that trump is demonstrably racist. i dont believe biden is.
     
    #2023 jo mama, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  4. generalthade_03

    generalthade_03 Contributing Member

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    Some more pandering from you Dem clowns. I don’t know why black people continue putting up with this bullshiet. The Dems have absolutely no respect for people of colors. This is what sleepy Joe’s underlying message to black people “ Stop thinking and asking questions, get back to being black”.
     
  5. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    Look I know you don’t like the guy and love Bernie. You asked for positive traits that people that voted for him see in him. If you wanted to know in good faith, that is one regardless if you believe the same as those who believe it. I’m not going to try and convince you to believe he’s the next MLK or Obama or even Bernie Sanders. I will tell you I think we’ll be on a much much better path as a country with him as president with a strong cabinet behind him than Donald J Trump.
     
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  6. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    People that love Bernie tend to lose sight of the fact that he actually is a much much more influential part of our nation not being president. The guy changed the party in 2016 because he didn’t win. The presidency is a national punching bag. It’s a thankless job where nobody is happy with you on either side and people literally want to kill you. Go ask Obama.

    Bernie and his hardcore supporters have an opportunity to be a big part of who the party is moving forward and influence public opinion in a way that Bernie couldn’t do if he was president where everyone hates his guts. In a lot of ways Biden is a great punching bag president but one where progressives have a chance to get him to sign off on major policy initiatives IF Bernie has the progressives move public opinion.

    But if Bernie folks think the best way to get what they want is to destroy Biden’s candidacy going into the Fall and hand another 20 years to Trumps regime of right wing autocracy, the are F$cking stupid and whiny little sh$ts.

    Wake up people. Bernie lost but if his following isn’t full of complete idiots, he could be far more impactful in his role as an influencer that moves public opinion along with AOC etc.
     
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  7. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    2018 called they want their hashtag back.
     
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  8. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    It's amazing that they don't see this and instead use their energy to do stuff like amplify the Tara Reade story.

    Its like they don't understand how the government works and think just by electing Bernie all of their programs will be implemented.

    I really don't understand it.
     
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  9. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    I mean ya... You don't have to convince me of that. It's just we had a field of 20+ DNC candidates all of whom you can say the same thing.
     
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  10. Major

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    This whole approach seems so condescending to black people, given that they actually voted for Biden and told us who they preferred at a staggering level. It's as though you think they, as a group, are just too stupid to know their own best interests and are always being conned by black leaders who are grifters.

    Maybe they support Biden because he has a history with them. Maybe they trust him because they saw his relationship with Obama. Or maybe they appreciate real progress that was made during the Obama/Biden period over the pie-in-the-sky nonsense Bernie promises, which even most of his biggest supporters admit will never pass but might "change the conversation" or other such things that actually don't change anyone's lives. How many black people got health care as a result of ACA? How many lives were saved? Those things are real, tangible results.
     
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  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Yup. Apparently if you are black Democrat legislator, you are above reproach and can be a mouth piece for pharmaceutical and insurance giants because stating the obvious makes you "racist".

    Even under the ACA, how many Americans were still uninsured. How many Americans even with insurance were afraid to use their healthcare because of fear of absurd deductibles?

    https://www.usnews.com/news/health-...us-who-cant-afford-to-see-doctor-keeps-rising

    The ACA was nothing more than a bandaid on a severed artery. There are still thousands of underinsured or uninsured black families in this country. They still are in neighborhoods with **** k-12 education and they still are overly harrased by local law enforcement.

    I don't think Obama was a "bad president" by any means but let's not pretend that Obama solved any deep systemic problems. He didn't. He played it safe. I'm sure a lot had to do with perception. He didn't want to be the first black president and then be perceived as the handout president and legalized weed president.

    All you have is "but black people voted for Biden in the primaries". But when it comes to actual policy discussion, it's just platitudes. Biden's history with the black community is bragging about compromising with segregationists, authoring and sponsoring crime bill that had negative impact on the black community and being chosen by Obama to be his VP because Obama needed the "but his middle name is Hussein" blue dog Democrat vote. What other history is there?

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk...mise-segregationists-he-fought-their-n1021626
     
    #2031 fchowd0311, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  12. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Just to make a single point. "School choice" essentially means "leaving behind most poor children".
     
  13. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I suppose, but that isn’t how I took it at all.
     
  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I was under the impression that this discussion had to with Biden in general in regards to context of his interview with Charlemagne the God. Especially since the Democratic primary is essentially over. That is why I found it odd that you are criticizing Biden in regard to being a baseline Democrat. That is pretty much it. Democrats have and will likely do far more for the black community than most Republicans and certainly Trump. If Biden is basically doing what any Democrat would do that is not doing nothing..

    Again I find it troubling how often progressives downplay the importance of USSC seats. I think after Bush v Gore, Citizens United and Merrit Garland that would show how important those seats are. Frankly a USSC seat is probably more important now than VP and placing a black women on the USSC is potentially going to have profound implication for those underlying systematic problems. This is far more than just pandering.
    You raise good points but none of those have to do with Warren or Sanders specifically reaching out to the black community. If your argument is that they have policies that will benefit the black community even though they aren't targeted at them then the argument would still apply that they haven't done anything to specifically address the black community.
     
    #2034 rocketsjudoka, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
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  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    First, Biden would not be my first choice but my first tier of candidates did not enter the race.

    Amongst the candidates that entered and were viable, Biden was my choice.

    If you are asking me why Biden is a good candidate, there are a number of reasons.

    First he is likable and has a certain charisma that many prior office holders have had. It makes a difference when it comes to being effective in office. Second, he is extremely experienced and familiar with what the job entails. There are unlikely to be any major scandals or shock on what his positions are and will be. Coming off the current President, that is important.

    As for his actual policies, he is a democrat but is a moderate. No we will not see massive changes (which I think will come but not in 4 years) but we will see more resources and attention go towards liberal agendas.

    Also Biden is surrounded by smart people and is capable of making more substantive change than someone like Sanders IMO.

    Also electability matters right now. The Supreme Court is close to the Republicans having a super majority for at least 10-15 years and likely 20 years or longer.

    IMO the strongest leaders in the Democratic Party are younger women that are not quite ready. This is the strongest and deepest group of women in 100 years or more.
     
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  16. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yes we had 20 candidates and many of them were bad candidates or marginal candidates. The field overall was very weak. There is no Obama or Clinton or Reagan in this race.

    From that group of marginal and in some cases, extremist candidates emerged Joe Biden. People trusted Biden and believed he had the experience and ability that all the other candidates lacked.

    When this period is done, we are going to see dynamic politicians look at the Republican field since Obama and the Democratic field and say “I should have ran” or “I can do this.”
     
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  17. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    Can you explain to me what "reaching out to the black community" means? Pandering? Saying you'll chose a black VP? Does Bernie not hanging out with black activists like Killer Mile and Charlemagne tha God not count? Does not being involved in the Civil Rights movement not count?
    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/06/bernie-sanders-civil-rights-movement-activism

    I just need a clear definition of what it looks like to target the black community?

     
  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I agree with most of this. Biden also wasn't my choice and to be blunt the main reason why I supported him after all the candidates that liked ahead of him dropped out is that he's not Sanders and he's not Trump.

    Personally I'm not expecting much out of a Biden presidency. Someone else brought up that Biden stands for normalcy and that's far better than what we have now. A lot of damage has been done to this country. If Biden can fix some of that and bring more balance to the USSC I will consider that good.
     
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  19. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    What is it with people saying that Biden promised to choose a black VP. He said he would choose a woman VP. He said he would choose a black woman for USSC. I've already explained that that is more important than VP.

    As I'm not quite sure what you mean by Bernie not hanging out with those people? I seem to recall he did but if you're criticizing Biden for making pandering gestures wouldn't that also be pandering?

    As for Sander's civil rights history certainly admirable but if you're going to dismiss Biden being a loyal VP to the first black president I'm not sure why we should consider what Sanders did 50 years ago as important to 2020.
     
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  20. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    You don't have to discuss the importance of USSC seats to me. That's another aspect where the bar is set so low for Joe. Every Democrat candidate can claim the same thing about USSC seats so this isn't some unique point for Biden. It seems like this was a point made to convince me that Biden is better than Trump which I already agree. I'm voting for Biden in the general. I'm still standing by that Biden was the second worst candidate of the field ahead of only Bloomberg.
     

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